Homework Questions (in general)

Every so often, someone in the Lounge asks for help on their homework.  Makes sense to me - we have a wide community of people who know about a wide variety of things.  What I find odd is that the responses almost always seem to just tell the original posted what the answer is (or what formula to plug numbers into).  As a teacher, this seems very unhelpful to me (in the long run).  I mean, sure, it lets the original poster finish their assignment and hand it in - but they'll never be able to replicate that work on a test if they didn't figure it out themselves.  Surely education is about learning the techniques to solve problems rather than just learning algorithms that go with certain key words?

I'm really not meaning to criticize anyone here - just provide an alternate perspective.  I fully understand how tempting the 'easy fix' can be.

well, susie, statistically speaking, most of us aren't teachers.  teaching is a skill, right?  not everyone has that skill.

besides, if those people wanted to be taught, they'd probably ask their questions elsewhere.

school is 90 percent about giving the teacher the answer they want.... then forgetting most of it and moving onto the next class (and repeating until you are finished). You retain some after the years...but the vast majority goes out the window (and if you actually ever need it for life, you need "refresher" courses to re-learn what you actually need to use).

So...for homework...the answer is good enough (then just memorize the answer so you can spit it back out during the test).

Original Post by loriklorik:

 

So...for homework...the answer is good enough (then just memorize the answer so you can spit it back out during the test).

 Luckily, this method works for many subjects.

Math is a different story.

If you don't understand how to get the answer, it doesn't matter if you got the right answer or not. Because when it comes to a test, the answer will be something different. Math is not about getting the right answer, but learning how to get the right answer. 90% or more of math is getting the correct set up, after that it is basic mathematics.

When it comes to most other basic subjects, memorization is the key to passing the classes(or was in my experience).

math is one of the easiest....just remember the formulas and plug in whatever numbers they throw at you (at least thats how it worked with all my classes). I dont think i ever actually knew why i was plugging the numbers in or what it actually meant... but i got an A so works for me (and i couldnt even begin to remember what they were now heh).

Original Post by loriklorik:

school is 90 percent about giving the teacher the answer they want.... then forgetting most of it and moving onto the next class (and repeating until you are finished). You retain some after the years...but the vast majority goes out the window (and if you actually ever need it for life, you need "refresher" courses to re-learn what you actually need to use).

 This makes me sad.  Sure, you're not going to remember every detail of every course for the rest of your life - but that's why I thought education was supposed to be primarily about teaching skills (thinking, analysing, organizing, problem solving,basic math skills, communicating, etc.) that could be useful later in life.  Has school really gone so far in the "suck and spew" direction?  (Suck the info. into your head then spew it out on the test)

susie, meet lorik.  pay no attention to anything he says; he probably doesn't mean it.

Susiecue, 

Take in from a 5th grade teacher....parents seem to think its better for them to do their child's work then for their child to get it.  Every test there are 3 girls who fail the test....but always had 100% on homework.

And these are kinda impt skills...i dont know, multiplying, subtraction....stuff u will use.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

susie, meet lorik.  pay no attention to anything he says; he probably doesn't mean it.

 no way! i mean things! (unless i am poking fun at someone in a mocking way :D)

As for school.... its all about getting the little piece of paper at the end. Gradeschool and highschool isnt really about doing the work...its a daycare program (i slept).

I dont even know the names of the classes i am taking now o.O i just show up because they take attendance and give quizzes to "getcha" (how does that have anything to do with being able to spit back answers?...) I dont take notes... i dont dont study... i dont pay attention...i just do the homework the night before its due (with any length of assignement) and the same with tests (night before a test, i read the chapters once over for the first time and short term memorize whatever formulas they have...or whatever list of "important keypoints" it gives). Works fine, i get B's on the tests and the homework / attendance usually boosts it up to an A (or sometimes a B ...doesnt really make a difference).

And this isnt like i am a freshman or anything... i have 1 more semester to graduate. School has been and is just a big game of monkey see monkey do. Some might have a hard time with that, but for the rest of us its a huge joke of how to do the least work possible.

Original Post by loriklorik:

Original Post by pgeorgian:

susie, meet lorik.  pay no attention to anything he says; he probably doesn't mean it.

 no way! i mean things! (unless i am poking fun at someone in a mocking way :D)

As for school.... its all about getting the little piece of paper at the end. Gradeschool and highschool isnt really about doing the work...its a daycare program (i slept).

I dont even know the names of the classes i am taking now o.O i just show up because they take attendance and give quizzes to "getcha" (how does that have anything to do with being able to spit back answers?...) I dont take notes... i dont dont study... i dont pay attention...i just do the homework the night before its due (with any length of assignement) and the same with tests (night before a test, i read the chapters once over for the first time and short term memorize whatever formulas they have...or whatever list of "important keypoints" it gives). Works fine, i get B's on the tests and the homework / attendance usually boosts it up to an A (or sometimes a B ...doesnt really make a difference).

And this isnt like i am a freshman or anything... i have 1 more semester to graduate. School has been and is just a big game of monkey see monkey do. Some might have a hard time with that, but for the rest of us its a huge joke of how to do the least work possible.

Hate to be cynical, but I agree. In my eyes, high school is 20% memorization, 30% showing up, and 50% bulls****ing. Teachers make you just regurgitate stuff back to them. I hated it. I did what I needed to do & ended up with straight As & a full ride to college, but I couldn't tell you any of what I "learned" in high school. Within a month it was gone forever.

But, I've found that college is SO MUCH better. Professors want you to LEARN, not to memorize. It's amazing.

//Edited because the formatting got WAYYYY screwed up when it posted haha.

I have to agree with Lorik on this... I was a high honors student (almost all straight As throughout gradeschool and highschool)... and I did exactly what Lorik did.

I guess I'm good at being a monkey. =0 *eats banana*

Original Post by starcrossdlovex:

In my eyes, high school is Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} 20% memorization, 30% showing up, and 50% ****. 

 I agree!

Now that's just silly, honestly.

Half the things I know I know because someone flat out told me the answer.  Very few people in this world have 'taught' me, in the standardized sense, and I didn't learn any better from them than I did from simply looking up facts (or asking for them). 

I really feel the public school has no idea how to go about teaching children (FCAT, anyone?), and that, as a whole, young people must (and will) learn on their own.  So if they want to just fill out the assignment, get it over with, and move on to better things, I'm all for it. =)

This is long, and I want to preface it with one statement.  I fully respect the fact that others do and will disagree with my point of view on this, but this is my perspective.  I can understand the other point of view (lynnlette has some good points.) and don't want this to come off condemning of the other side.

IMHO, the problem is that cheating deprives the student of the opportunity to grow.

It cheats them out of problem solving skills.  (How do I figure out this math problem?  Hey, I could find a problem whose answer is in the back of the book and work through that instead, then come back to this when I think I know how to do it.  Let's try this formula first... nope, how about this one... oh, that did it!)

It cheats them out of developing better resource finding skills.  (Ok, so I can't just ask Mom this time (maybe she doesn't know).  Gee, I bet I can find the answer in the section of the text with that very title!)

It deprives them of the opportunity to take pride in figuring something out.  In teaching themselves how to do something.  Learning how to learn is such an important skill! 

Example:

Years ago, when my sister was in high school, she began picking my brothers' brains about a book (I think it was grapes of wrath).  She was asking them for the answers to the homework questions that tested if she had read the book or not -- and when they caught on they stopped answering.  She turned to cliff notes.  Yes, she got her answers.  This was her standard operating procedure.  She didn't do work if she could possibly avoid it, even if avoiding doing the work took far more effort than doing it!

What's so bad about that particular example, you might think.  Well I'll agree with you that the facts of the book in of themselves aren't important in the scheme of life.

 What is however: She never developed strong reading skills, because she didn't bother to do her reading for any class (or outside of class, to boot).  She didn't pay the price for that in grades because she'd use cheating to get out of it.  But that meant her weak reading skills went unnoticed and couldn't be fixed.  You can't help someone improve if you don't know they have a problem.  The net effect was that maybe she simply *couldn't* read that book because she'd skipped out on doing it so many times before.

She didn't learn how to comprehend what she read because she never did really read.  That doesn't do well for her in the real world, where she'll have to comprehend what the terms of her lease mean, for example.  Each assignment she skipped made it that much harder for her to do it, because that skill atrophied.

If she has a problem, she doesn't even ATTEMPT to try and solve it herself.  She finds someone to do it.  Even silly things, like there are no spoons in the silverware drawer (check the dish washer?).  It's not that she can't do it, I swear half the time it is that she's LEARNED that she doesn't have to even try.  Someone else can do all the thinking for her, and she's *happy* about that.  The first thing she does in any situation is find someone else to do it for her.

It wasn't the particular facts that were important, it was the process.  The reading skills, the comprehension, the thinking skills.  So even a trivial task (read chapters in history book) can work on some important, life long, skills.   IMHO, it's a hundred times nicer to suggest strategies the person could use to figure things out themselves (did you work through a problem with a known solution at the back of the book?).  At least that still leaves them some room to learn for themselves.  And a chance to grow.

In short:  School is about learning how to learn.  It's about learning how to solve problems, find information, and think for yourself.  The facts, formulas and figures might change, but they all really pursue the same thing. 

/end cranky rant

So yeah, hope I didn't beget a flame war or something.  

Wow, it's really sad to see some of the cynical perspectives on here.  No wonder we live in a "microwave" society where people want everything now, and are willing to accept whatever is thrown at them through the television, newspapers, and the internet by "experts" without any critical thought. 

I guess it now makes sense why internet rumors are easily spread.  Someone is just "telling people an answer" and they accept it as truth. 

I agree, susie but I also agree with lorik with how easy it is to get away with not studying appropriately. I had some courses in university that I breezed through and never once read the chapters. I would simply show up, take notes in class and that was it. I had some classes I never even bought the book for. But I think so many university students today are so stupid. In my senior thesis course for Psych my professor was appalled by how many of the students didn't have basic writing skills. She said she didn't have time to teach them things they should've learned in middle school/high school and sent them to the writing lab on campus (and these are comments I heard from almost every one of my professors). Luckily my honors classes prepared me well and I worked extra hard in those courses.

i had a few teachers (very few, unfortunately, but enough) in high school and my undergrad who did set the bar higher.  for the rest, i could memorize and BS.  but the few are the ones i remember, and they're the ones who kept me inspired about learning.

grad school has been different.  i've only had one prof--one course in fifteen--who didn't encourage and expect original, critical thinking.

you cant teach "smart"... its either something you have or dont have. I dont mean facts or understandings of a subject. I mean the ABILITY to do those things. You cant teach someone how to absorb information faster (though you can show them more effective ways to put the information in front of them, such as shortening facts into keywords close together on a page for quick reference /memorization...ala notes).

The problem with the school systems is it has to fit everyone... so the slow ones are left behind while the fast ones are bored out of their minds.

Quick memorizing info and spitting it back isnt a sign of lazyness or lack of ability to question... its simply getting things over with as painlessly as possible so the person can move on to their own interests.

If you could teach "smart"...we would all stay in school till everyone was a mega genius...

i almost agree, lorik.  i agree that the problem with the school system is that it tries to apply a one-size-fits-all model (or at best, three-sizes-fits-all).  it puts values on a small number of talents that are relatively arbitrary in real-world terms.

at its essence, the western school system is still modeled on a system that was designed to fit for a small, elite group who probably would never have to put in a hard day's work in their life, and were supposed to be literate while no one else was.

teachers will probably argue with me on this point, so i'll say up front that (a) the model worked for me - i was a perfect fit, and (b) i've worked in five different schools in two different districts and at the primary, intermediate, and secondary level, over a decade.  i know many, many great teachers (and a handful of bad ones).  i don't blame teachers; i blame a top-down system that is tragically resistant to change.

i think the school system is starting to REALLY show its age. With modern technology and communication...there is NO reason why everyone shouldnt have access to the very very best education (there is no reason why every accounting major in the country couldnt be given lessons by the very best harvard teachers for a tuition of 50 dollars)...

But, the system has so much money and politics in it that it isnt really about the education for the students anymore... students are more like walking wallets to pump billions into the world of acidemia o.O

i agree with all of that, lorik.  but i also think that interpersonal skills need to be taught and valued to a far greater extent.  i've known way too many kids who are labelled as "dim" (quoting a senior high school english teacher, there), learning-disabled, etc. because they can't perform at par in english and math literacy, even though they have far superior analytical and communication skills.