A Howdy and Help Understanding Catabolic State

Hello all! I should start by introducing myself: my name is Nik, I am a 25 y/o, 6ft tall male. I had been leading a somewhat sedimentary lifestyle mostly because I was lazy. Not to long ago I weighed in at 233.2 lbs (106 kgs)!!!! Needless to say I was not happy with that. So I joined a gym and reevaluated my diet.
I decided to go with a very low carb/ very high protein diet. I have gone from almost 750+ grams carbs /DAY to between 50-100 grams carbs/day. Protein is between 150-200 grams/day (no I dont have any medical problems). Fat intake is never over 50 grams/day. So pretty strict stuff. On top of that I take a few supplements- Hydroxycut Hardcore, 100% Whey Protein, Megaman Sport Multivitamin, Glutamine and Glucosamine Exercise is about 30- 45 mins cardio 4 days/week with about 2 hours of weight training 5 days/week. I have been doing this diet/ exercise program for about three weeks and as of Sept 3 I have alreay dropped to 220 lbs (100 kgs)!!!

So here is where my question comes, a guy I know who competes in body building says that my body is in a catabolic state and thus I am causing myself more negative effects than positive. I guess I am not understanding how this is and also what I can do to prevent it. Thank you all for your help and look forward to chatting with you!
Nik

My understanding is that this means your body is breaking down body tissue to use for fuel. Generally a result of too few calories. How many calories are you taking in? In addition, an extremely low carb diet will increase the acidity level in your body  - which also effects how you burn fuel. Increased acidity also causes a drop in weight as you lose a lot of water. Low carb diets do work, but they are fairly hard on the body. I would be sure and use the tools on this site to be certain you are taking in enough calories.

Just my opinion, of course.

hi medic

here is a pretty good explanation of anabolic and catabolic states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_metabolism

and here is an article summary you might find useful:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi ?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Ret rieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=112 55140

I know this may be too "technical" but it confirms what kathygator said...a catabolic state is when the body must use it's own proteins (found in cells) as an alternative energy source. This again goes back to nutritional intace. To build more muscle you need a good balance of protein+amino acids+carbs+fat to maintain a positive anabolic (i.e cell building) balance. If you need to lose body fat, do more cardio??   

       Many bodybuilders actually go into catabolic states on purpose when they are on their cut cycles.   Most do this using ketogenesis which is basically a low-carb,high-protein,high-fat diet.  Your body breaks down fatty-acids for energy instead of carbohydrates like when the body is in the normal anabolic state. From what you said, did not really go into much detail about your diet, you may want to raise your fat consumption while keeping your carbs low.  A high-protein, low-fat, and low-carbs diet your body will break down muscle becuase it has no other choice for a energy source and that is something you do not want.

  Also cut WAY WAY back on weight training.  Not sure of your training level but 2 hours a day 5 times a week is something only steriod users can keep up without overtraining and destroying their body.  Should only weight train 3 days or at most 4 days a week for about 1 hour each session. Anymore and you are not giving your muscles time to repair fibers so all that work in the gym is doing absolutely nothing.

Thank you all for the help. To give an example on my diet here is my consumption from today:
--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------
Water 711 0
Lunch
Chicken, Light Meat, Meat Only - Cooked, Roasted 128 221
Water 237 0
Fat Free American Singles 42 60
Cheddar Cheese Rice Snacks - Quaker Quakes 15 70
Snacks
StarKist Tuna Creations Hickory Smoked Tuna 140 150
Water 237 0
Carb Freedom Strawberry Yogurt Smoothie - Low Carb Yogurt 295 140
Pro Performance 100% Whey Protein 31 120
Total Calories Consumed 761

Activity Minutes Calories
Running - 5.2 mph (11.5 Min/mile) 30 449
Weight Lifting - (Free Weight Nautilus or Universal-type), Power Lifting or Body Building, Vigorous Effort 60 599
Normal Calorie Expenditure (?) 1,350 3,522
Total Burned Calories 4,569

Fat - 22.2% (19 grams)
Protein - 61.5% (117 grams)
Carbohydrates - 12.6% (24 grams)
Alcohol - 0.0%
Other - 3.7%

Daily Sodium Intake - 1,962 mg
Daily Cholesterol Intake - 244 mg
Nutrition Grade

B+
--------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------
I work nights also so thats why it starts with lunch, I eat breakfast around 7pm so thats why its not on there. I know I need to up my calorie intake for what I am doing but dont know how without upping my fat or carb intake. I know that one day is a bad representation but thats really what my diet consists of on a daily basis.

My weights only take that long because they are large set of 8 to 10 exercises (different muslce groups each day) with 3 sets per exercise. So it varies from 1.5 to 2 hours to get thru all exercises/sets.

So I guess my question is how do I get out of my catabolic state and into a state that is more beneficial? The weight program says nothing about it being harmful and was even supported by my trainer. Do I reduce the number of exercises or the number of sets? Anything else you all can suggest doing?

That's a serious deficit, isn't it?? How about adding some low GI carbs and extra protein shakes?..eating so far below the recommended minimum is not going to sustain you for very long, evenif it works wonders for the weight loss!

That was missing my breakfast which added about 400 more calories and more protein, but yes it is a major deficit. I am trying to find foods that will help boost the numbers but its hard to without killing in the carbs department. I should also say that I weighed myself this morning and I am at 213.5 lbs. So that means about 6lbs loss in one week. Please help- what do you all recommend?
Nik

HOw about some hard boiled eggs?  Lean cuts of meat like chicken breast / turkey/ tuna or other fish.

So you consumed 1161 & burned 4569? I think the recommended minimum for men is 1500 cals in per day (1200 for women).  If you feel strongly about a low carb diet, you can up them to 60 grams per day and probably still be in ketosis.

"HOw about some hard boiled eggs? Lean cuts of meat like chicken breast / turkey/ tuna or other fish."

I am all about them but again they are low in calories and thus I would need to eat a substantial amount (but would drive my protein thru the roof). I have been eating more chicken lately.



I mean I can eat a whopper :-) or something but I would rather not. I feel great and I can already see great changes in my body. I will post todays results tonight. It will have all my days intake since I got to sleep last night and all my food will be on todays results.

A lot of us here don't really go with the low-carb diets. They can be extremely hard on your body. It's recommended you get about 50% carbs and 20-30% protein 10-20% fats. If the carbs are good carbs like whole grains they will also contain fiber and will fuel your body better, without turning into fat.

Another reason people don't recommend the low-carb diets is because very few people can stick with it long-term. Most give up and gain the weight back.

Hope this is helpful. :)

Hi, I am a personal trainer, and with your workout schedule you are eventually going to need to either eat more carbs or cut down on some of that training.  I would rather see you eat more.  :)  (However, I do agree that 2 hours weight training 5 days a week may very well be too much.  It depends; some people can do it).

Don't think you will be ruining your diet either!  Your weight loss will probably slow down if you add more carbs, but 5 pounds a week is too much weight loss too fast.  If you were my client I'd have you slowly start adding fresh veggies, (green and red stuff), then one fruit a day, then some oatmeal and whole grains. 

The reason I would add them back gradually is because what you are doing to your body now is probably freaking out your metabolism.  Your brain probably thinks you have been put into a forced labor camp lol so it is going to hold on tight to any carb it can get right now (turn it into fat).  The weight you have lost is great, but you need to slowly get back to a more balanced diet. 

PS the carbs in oats, apples and some vegetables actually help your body get rid of fat.  Surprise!  There ARE good carbs!

PPS a very high protein diet can strain your kidneys so be careful!!! 

Awesome guys- thanks for all your help, I think this is a realistic view of my diet since it has every meal in one day (weird I know but us graveyard works are already alittle off).

Fat - 15.7% (24 grams)
Protein - 45.3% (152 grams)
Carbohydrates - 36.8% (124 grams)
Alcohol - 0.0%
Other - 2.2%

Daily Sodium Intake - 3,505 mg
Daily Cholesterol Intake - 220 mg
Daily Fiber Intake - 12 grams

Mon, Sep 11 2006
Walking - 4.0 Mph, Level, Firm Surface, Very Brisk Pace 40 323
Weight Lifting - (Free Weight Nautilus or Universal-type), Power Lifting or Body Building, Vigorous Effort 80 775
Total Calories Burned 1,098

I think this sounds better but 62g of carbs come from a Rockstar energy drink (and I am trying to stay very far away from caffeine). If you have any comments about these results please share them. I am still learning and hopefully others can too from this thread!
Nik

agree with snowhite, add some veggies, look for the low GI carbs that will give you longer lasting energy, and fill you up a bit more without you needing to eat large amounts and the "throwing the balance "out. You can't stay on a low carb diet forever, and as snowhite said, as soon as you add them back you could start to gain the weight back. Anything high in fibre helps to bind fat before it is absorbed!

Howdy Nik,

You said you are taking Glutamine and 100% Whey Protein. Are you taking them everyday? How much? And why don't you log it?

I do take both of those and I do take them everyday, I havent even thought about logging the glutamine- should I be? I take 5mg a day of glutamine. Also, I do long the protein- its either in the form of a Smoothie King Gladiator drink or GNC 100% Whey Protein. I like the smoothie king better since its 45g protein and less than 1g carb :) Its the only way I keep my protein levels up. Nik

These smoothies?

225 calories which is good for you, you are not eating enough with out it.

On the Glutamine I know, squat really are you taking it as a protein source or is it l-Glutamine to protect muscle mass? My brother is a big believer I take a lot of supplements but I haven't added this. Wither way here is a link to a LE Magazine article (Le = Life Extension Foundation).

If you need more reading try HK's mega post The Calorie-Count.com Diet Carbs are your friend, really (food is also I am uncomfortable with that yet myself but like you I was losing tons eating 1500 calories until my body caught on. As of now I could eat 1500 until 2009 and I don't think I'd lose a pound.)

I am using the glutamine to protect muscle mass (catabolism) and support protein synthesis. I take it post workout and an hour later when protein is being utilized the most to repair and rebuild muscle. I will slowly reintroducing carbs back into my diet in the form of smart healthy carbs like from fruits and simple whole grains.

Smoothie King Gladiator: Nutrition Facts Serving Size 20 oz (560.0 g) Amount Per Serving Calories 187 Calories from Fat 0% Daily Value* Total Fat 0.0g 0% Cholesterol 1mg 0% Sodium 150mg 6% Total Carbohydrates 1.0g 0% Dietary Fiber 0.9g 4% Protein 45.0g * Based on a 2000 calorie diet

On a side note I learned in Food & Nutrition class that the brain needs 125g of carbs to function properly and at its highest capabilities. Hmmm.