Kids these days…

I have been feeling particularly frustrated at my job lately and need to rant a little.  I work as a TA at a major research university (I won’t say which one, but it isn’t that hard to figure out) with ridiculous admissions standards (I probably couldn’t have gotten in as an undergrad) and a pretty solid national reputation.  Nevertheless, I am turning into a 26-year-old curmudgeon when it comes to my darling students.  Don’t get me wrong, I really love to teach and some of my students are great, but some of them are kind of making me want to stab myself in the face. 

First of all, I don’t understand how the average GPA of incoming students can possibly as high as it is given the fact that so many of my students can barely put together a coherent paragraph.  I don’t mean they can barely put together a professional, nuanced paragraph suitable for publication, I mean many of them, including those for whom English is a first language, can barely write a paragraph involving complete sentences and a full (even if flawed) idea.  But frankly the poor grammar and choppy writing itself doesn’t bother me so much as the fact that when you (politely) inform the class that they should be sure to proofread their papers for grammar and style – not that you will even grade down for it – some will still actually protest that “it isn’t fair” for them to be asked to express themselves clearly in any context outside of the English department, although they phrase it a bit differently. 

These are the same people who also complain that it “isn’t fair”:

a) when they do not receive attendance points (worth .001% of their grade) for arriving 30 minutes late to a 1 hour class,

b) when you give them a grade based on what they actually said, rather than what they claim they “meant to say”,

c) when you decline to provide a “study guide” that consists of all the material they  should have been learning (i.e. slept through) all term and/or the complete answers to the exam,

d) when you consistently enforce a rule that you didn’t even make and given the fact that the maintenance of said rule is part of your job description,

e) when you don’t jump at the opportunity to educate them for free by allowing them (and 15 others) to enroll in a completely full course,

f) when you don’t manage to respond to the fifteen question email they sent at 2 AM the morning of the exam,

g) when you hesitate to drive across town and come to campus in your free time research time to help them after you’ve spent your designated office hours sitting alone staring at the wall, and

h) when you decline to make a second special appointment with them after they have already stood you up once. 

I could go on forever about what some of them think is unfair.

Then the cheaters are a whole other story.  Not only do some of them plagiarize papers, steal exams, and bring study sheets into exams, but I have had students cheat on take-home assignments that weren’t even being graded and they knew it.  I mean, if you know you will get full credit whether or not the answers are correct, why bother plagiarizing, right?  Why not just write a BS answer and then use the time you'd save by not spending the afternoon in the Dean’s office cleaning your bongs or something.  And don’t get me started on Wikipedia abuse; these days, before I grade an exam or a paper I look at what Wikipedia says on the subject first to save myself the confusion as to why half of my students are giving the same weird, half-correct answer.

I clearly need to find a way to cope with this kind of stuff, especially since everything I hear from folks at other schools is that these kinds of "problem students" exist everywhere and are simply becoming more prevalent all the time.  I guess I should repeat that I really don’t have a problem with most students (I promise!), just the ones who do things that make my job unnecessarily difficult.  I just wish I could figure out how to improve things before my youthful idealism fades...

Original Post by coreyander:

First of all, I don’t understand how the average GPA of incoming students can possibly as high as it is grade inflation given the fact that so many of my students can barely put together a coherent paragraph writting coherent paragraphs isn't on standardized tests, so schools don't teach it. 

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by coreyander:

First of all, I don’t understand how the average GPA of incoming students can possibly as high as it is grade inflation given the fact that so many of my students can barely put together a coherent paragraph writting coherent paragraphs isn't on standardized tests, so schools don't teach it. 

Thanks for putting up with such a long rant!!!

Yeah, grade inflation is a factor - I guess I just mean I can't understand how it could be SO bad.  Kids are coming in with 4.0s but are barely literate. Grade inflation continues to be a problem once they get to college, too, as most Profs. have a lot of institutional pressure not to fail tons of kids.  C- is the new F, I'm afraid.

Standardized testing is a problem too - except that a lot of them even bomb exactly the kind of multiple-choice, minimal critical thinking exams that they have ostensibly been training for their entire lives!  Anyway, I try not to blame secondary schooling too much since everything I hear from teachers is that the students are coming in already behind. 

I guess in general, though, I am less interested in figuring out what happened in the past that brought this situation to bear (or, more specifically, in assigning blame to others) and more interested in figuring out if there is anything I can do to help, or at least reduce my contribution to the problem.

Ha, as a college student.. I completely understand what you're writing about. 

I actually attend classes and do the work for my grades.  My major is design based, so I have a lot of studio based classes.. and that's where the slacker students annoy me the most, because they still slip by with an A as long as they can get in a group with an organized leader.  What really annoys me is when I go to class and take notes, only to find that the kid sleeping on the desk next to me is also getting an A because the prof puts all the lecture notes up online...ugh!

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by coreyander:

First of all, I don’t understand how the average GPA of incoming students can possibly as high as it is grade inflation given the fact that so many of my students can barely put together a coherent paragraph writting coherent paragraphs isn't on standardized tests, so schools don't teach it. 

 

 

 I totally agree with this. I have a very smart 16YO who is in all honors and top 10% of his class and he writes like he is in 2nd grade and he doesn't know how to write cursive. I don't think they teach handwriting any more they are too busy preparing for the TAKS(texas version) test.

A likely culprit is a curriculum that assumes you learned the basics years ago and don't need them. Over 30 years ago, in grade 12 English, my teacher took a week or so to review grammar and writing skills. He warned us not to tell anyone because it wasn't on the curriculum - we should have learned this stuff in junior high. He thought we hadn't and took a break from Shakespeare, Hemingway, and Tennessee Williams to give us a review.

In University I took an English course that focused on things like essay writing, but it was strictly an option - I don't think ANY program required it. Otherwise I wasn't taught practical Engish after grade 12.

And this was back in the mid-70s; it sounds like thngs haven't improved.

Original Post by flamel:

A likely culprit is a curriculum that assumes you learned the basics years ago and don't need them.

I think this is right on the money; very few classes include instruction outside of substantive content.  Other TAs and I sometimes talk about trying to hold some workshops or something about how to write, make an argument effectively, do college-level research, etc. but we worry that if we were to take our free time and do something like that no one would even show up.  I had an extra 50 min. section after my students had just taken an exam but before they had covered any new material recent and just took the whole period to offer advice on how to write a research paper (one is due at the end of term).  Maybe it was helpful, but I feel like they wished I would have just cancelled class. 

And jrose15, you make a great point about how this affects the other students.  I feel so bad sometimes for the people who are working their butts off only to earn the same degree as the person who makes no effort at all.  Plus, since I run discussion sections, part of the goal is for the students to help each other learn.  When only some students make an effort, it is as though the lazy people are receiving the contributions of their classmates without giving anything back!  Rest assured, though, that your instructors can probably tell who is just taking advantage, even if it doesn't seem like it to you.

Here's an article from the Globe and Mail that you might be interested in reading.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/ RTGAM.20090417.wcowent18/BNStory/specialComme nt

Why do you care if they try?...

From the students point of view, I want to just know whats on the test / what counts for points so i can get the grade and move on. I learn "some" of the material, but 95 percent of it I forget (general concepts are fine, those are common sense anyway).

Yea, basics like being able to actually write should be important...but that is just common sense also (they know how to speak so they know how to write, they just don't care enough to put a lot of effort into it). When they rise up higher in the system and expectations start to get stiffer...they will start to write better.

Basically....you should just stop caring. College isnt about real education...its about showing you are able to memorize a few facts or ways to do things and spitting it back out when test time comes. College is about playing around and having fun while you grow up a little more and proving to society you can be good and do as your told when you need to. Its way more important for them to grow up into their early/mid 20's and mature a little than anything they actually might learn in the classroom.

I finish this summer and havent had a class yet that I couldnt pass the final if i were given 2 days (gotta have time for TV and games!) and the notes for the class (or just the book)....

As for cheaters... you should be a little harder on them. Just because its so dishonest...(but, then again, the CEO's and other top people in the world arent the most honest out there, its not really a quality that is so important. Its a bit more important to be smart about it).

You're not alone.  This might help:

http://rateyourstudents.blogspot.com/

Original Post by loriklorik:

Why do you care if they try?...

From the students point of view, I want to just know whats on the test / what counts for points so i can get the grade and move on. I learn "some" of the material, but 95 percent of it I forget (general concepts are fine, those are common sense anyway).

Yea, basics like being able to actually write should be important...but that is just common sense also (they know how to speak so they know how to write, they just don't care enough to put a lot of effort into it). When they rise up higher in the system and expectations start to get stiffer...they will start to write better.

Basically....you should just stop caring. College isnt about real education...its about showing you are able to memorize a few facts or ways to do things and spitting it back out when test time comes. College is about playing around and having fun while you grow up a little more and proving to society you can be good and do as your told when you need to. Its way more important for them to grow up into their early/mid 20's and mature a little than anything they actually might learn in the classroom.

I finish this summer and havent had a class yet that I couldnt pass the final if i were given 2 days (gotta have time for TV and games!) and the notes for the class (or just the book)....

As for cheaters... you should be a little harder on them. Just because its so dishonest...(but, then again, the CEO's and other top people in the world arent the most honest out there, its not really a quality that is so important. Its a bit more important to be smart about it).

First of all, my post had very little to do with whether or not my students "try".  It is up to them whether or not they want to apply themselves, succeed in life, etc.  My problem is when they go out of my way to make my job more difficult than it is supposed to be.  Go back and read the OP; most of my complaints have nothing to do with students "not trying" and everything to do with them actively being pests.  Frankly, if my students just "didn't care" there would be no problem - they would get poor scores, eventually flunk out, and the world would have that many fewer under qualified college grads.  The problem is that most of the students I am describing are not satisfied getting a crappy score.  They want someone to do the work for them or, barring that, they want someone to reward them for doing nothing.  The lengths that they go to accomplish this ignoble goal inevitably wastes the time and energy that I SHOULD be spending on a million other things.

Essentially, you are asking me why I care that people are egregiously wasting my time, asking for unreasonable accommodations, and generally treating me like crap.  Wouldn't you care if you dealt with dozens of people, week after week, whose disregard for their own lives translated into opportunities to inconvenience you at every turn? 

Frankly, I don't need someone to tell me what college is and isn't about -- you clearly don't believe it is about education and you know what, it is fine that you to feel that way.  But, whether or not you think that getting an education matters, college SHOULDN'T be about being an immature pest to underpaid instructors.  Unfortunately many of your colleagues fail to realize that.

As for cheaters, I would love to kick them out myself.  However, I am a TA and don't have any authority on who goes to the Dean.  That you feel that "being smart about cheating" is a more important quality than being honest, though, makes me hope that you aren't in my classroom.

Original Post by medveditsa:

You're not alone.  This might help:

http://rateyourstudents.blogspot.com/

Haha... I read this everyday.  It actually is a bit depressing, though, because it really hits home how bad things are. 

Edit: And thanks, flybee, for that article.  Looks like Canadian students are quite the same as their U.S. counterparts.

Oh, and as I'm thinking about it:

"I finish this summer and havent had a class yet that I couldnt pass the final if i were given 2 days (gotta have time for TV and games!) and the notes for the class (or just the book)...."

Grade inflation.  You'd be amazed at the lengths that Profs go to in order to ensure that most students, even those who can barely spell their names, pass.

Uh, we had writing on our standardized tests.  I've only been out of H.S. for 7 years so I doubt that has changed.

Interesting rant.  Personally my own child has been honing her writing skills for years.  She bought herself the "Elements of Style" when she was 13.  The attitude of her peers in high school, particularly honors and AP English, was a constant source of irritation for her.  She couldn't believe how dumb they were. Eventually she left the mainstream and finally opted to take the CHSPE.  I'm afraid that when she does get to college she'll find the situation described by the OP.

We had some pretty serious grade inflation in my 300-400 level classes in my tiny, top-ranked engineering department... but that's because everyone there had already taken and done well in the brutalizing 100-200 level weeder classes.  All the slackers switched to liberal arts or kinesiology... which I'm sure sucked for the liberal arts and kinesiology majors who worked hard from the start.

Are you teaching weeder classes or advanced classes?  I think the more advanced you get, the better the students.

You kids get off my lawn!!!

I see this at the high school where I work as a librarian.

Many students have no idea how to use a book or a journal, they don't know what an index is, or a table of contents for that matter. 

They don't want to read "anything extra" --  they just want the exact morsel of information that they can quote or cite in their papers.  In fact, what would be better for them than a book, is "something off the internet - something quick and to the point."  They have no regard for what "credibility" or "authoritative" means. If I had a nickel for every time I explained why Wikipedia is not an acceptable source (though sometimes it CAN point you to good information if the article contains links to authoritative sources)....

They want to be spoon-fed and hand-held and then rewarded with a good grade.

I think it's because too many people have been encouraged to attend college.

College really shouldn't be "for everyone" -- some people should pursue a skilled trade instead of going to college.  Instead, the dumbing down is spreading to "higher education"

Also over-involved helicopter parents bear some responsibility too.  We recently lost a student because we wouldn't change her D to a C.  (We're a private school).  I felt grateful that the administration held firm and didn't cave to their demand.  They're used to getting their way - they don't take 'no' for an answer. At least in our small school, grades still have a meaning beyond 'participant'.

Original Post by loriklorik:

Basically....you should just stop caring. College isnt about real education...its about showing you are able to memorize a few facts or ways to do things and spitting it back out when test time comes. College is about playing around and having fun while you grow up a little more and proving to society you can be good and do as your told when you need to. Its way more important for them to grow up into their early/mid 20's and mature a little than anything they actually might learn in the classroom.

Honestly, this is what I love about going to school online to get my college education. I don't just memorize a few facts and spit them back out when test time comes; I very rarely have tests to do for my classes. All of my big, grade-determining events come in the form of research papers. All of my classes are based on a 1000 point structure, and obviously my classes are on a ten-point scale. One project is usually worth somewhere between 150-300 points. You do piss poorly on those while also skimping on little things like the seminar or discussion board posts, and you're screwed if you want a good grade.

Though, school simply isn't what it used to be. I've noticed that the further I go along, the more of my classmates that can actually write a coherent sentence, let alone a paragraph. I am so grateful for this fact because it boggles my mind that people my age and older CANNOT WRITE a coherent sentence. What the hell were they taught when they were in school? Granted, I self-taught most of my own writing skills, but I had several really good English teachers along the way, as well.

Original Post by coreyander:

Frankly, I don't need someone to tell me what college is and isn't about --

 haahaa, really? because you seemed quite confused to me. The kids dont want to fail out (duhhh), but they also dont want to put a bunch of work into something they will forget in a few weeks. 98 percent are going to be doing the assignments the night before class...which means...duhhh, they are going to send you emails early in the morning for some last minute desperate help.

Just because they try stuff doesnt mean they think its actually going to work (but doesnt hurt to try). Things like "its not fair!" or "cant we do less?" often dont work....but sometimes they do (like in a couple classes I have had this semester even). They want to get out of work...because...get ready for this.....they....dont....care.

So again, seems your a little confused on what college is and isnt....and your only 26....get over yourself o.O

Original Post by loriklorik:

Original Post by coreyander:

Frankly, I don't need someone to tell me what college is and isn't about --

 haahaa, really? because you seemed quite confused to me. The kids dont want to fail out (duhhh), but they also dont want to put a bunch of work into something they will forget in a few weeks. 98 percent are going to be doing the assignments the night before class...which means...duhhh, they are going to send you emails early in the morning for some last minute desperate help.

Just because they try stuff doesnt mean they think its actually going to work (but doesnt hurt to try). Things like "its not fair!" or "cant we do less?" often dont work....but sometimes they do (like in a couple classes I have had this semester even). They want to get out of work...because...get ready for this.....they....dont....care.

So again, seems your a little confused on what college is and isnt....and your only 26....get over yourself o.O

You know, lorik, it's attitudes like yours that make me think that college really should be much harder to get into than they are. If students don't care what the hell are they doing there? A college education should be reserved for those who want to do the work. Sure, I b*tch and moan a bit when I have a project coming up, but I'm going to do the work and put the level of effort required into it to get the grades I want. I tend to not take notes in my classes because my "finals" are often research projects, not exams.

If they don't want to do the work necessary to get the grades they want and not drop out that's fine. But they should also realize that it's not all about them and should drop the entitled, MEMEMEME attitude when professors and  TAs crack down on the slacker and prevent them from getting away with the same crap they pulled in high school. It's college. No one's going to hold your hand, you have to find a system that works for you--if they want someone to hold their hand the whole way through they need to leave. It seems like the OP is ticked off about her students' need for hand-holding, and their inability to suck it up when she doesn't hold their hands.