knees hurt due to lunges/squats?

Anyone have any tips on how to properly do lunges so that my knees do not hurt for days afterwards?  Or other suggested exercises that work the same muscles?

Have not had any problems with my knees before I started doing Body Pump classes and free weights and I think it is the lunges (but maybe the squats or both) that are hurting my knees.

I was wondering if it might be poor technique (but I have been trying to ensure my technique is good), or just weak muscles that need to get stronger?  I have been doing the classes for over 2 months now and still have the problems. 

Suggestions would be appreciated.

I had exactly the same problem until I started doing them at a pilates class and the instructor told us to stand with our feet apart (1 forward one back) and to keep our backs upright and lower ensuring our knees were behind our front foot ( i.e. you can see your toes when you lower) apparently this excersises the muscles without putting undue pressure on the joints

Same thing happened to me   When you do your lunges, you need to make sure that your knee stays over your ankle.  If it is going over your toes, you could hurt your knee.

Original Post by wesmckean:

If it is going over your toes, you could hurt your knee.

It's impossible to do a lunge without the knee extending past the toe. 

For the back leg yes and that seems to be when it hurts the most. 

Any suggestions sully for alternative exercises?

John Berardi has a piece on the knees going past the toes. It's written about squats, but it can be applied to lunges too. Basically, it's a myth.

And sully's right - at the very least, your back knee will go far past your toes in a lunge.

As for the front foot, it would depend on the length of your foot relative to your leg. I have short feet for my height - does that mean I can't lunge as far?

I think keeping your knee in line with your toes is more often the problem, and if you are doing them rapidly, it's easy (and bad) for the knee to swing in or out.

Have you tried stepups? When I was having a problem with lunges, I switched to stepups.

Someone, karozel maybe? posted a routine that helps strengthen knees. I'll try to find it.

edit:  dropsquat program from Bill Hartmann which is a rehab progression for generalized knee issues.

Thanks amethystgirl.

I have something to say about lunges.. I have been working out 10 years and recently got a persoanl trainer who introduced me to lunges.. OH MY GOSH.. I could not walk for 4.5 days...  The problem was (for me) didnt drink lots of water before AND after the lunges and also I didnt do any stretching before and after.. so next time I was with her and had to do lunges I was Fine so maybe try it and see 

Sherry

: )

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by wesmckean:

If it is going over your toes, you could hurt your knee.

It's impossible to do a lunge without the knee extending past the toe. 

Sorry. It's not the back knee that should not go past the toe.  Its the front knee.  Thought that would be obvious when you are doing a lunge.  My bad :-)

Original Post by amethystgirl:

John Berardi has a piece on the knees going past the toes. It's written about squats, but it can be applied to lunges too. Basically, it's a myth.

No, it's a myth period.

 There can be contraintications for specific exercises due to biomechanical deficiencies, lack of flexibility or undertrained muscles in the kinetic chain involved, but the solution there isn't to avoid those exercises, it's to fix the problems and then do the exercises.

 Like a runner with poor knees - the solution isn't to stop running, the solution is to strenghten the muscles around the knee and then keep running, neh?

Original Post by wesmckean:

Sorry. It's not the back knee that should not go past the toe.  Its the front knee.  Thought that would be obvious when you are doing a lunge.  My bad :-)

 Why can the back knee go past the toes but the front knee can't?  What changes in the knee when you place it in front of the other one that all of a sudden makes it unsafe to go past some arbitrary point?

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by wesmckean:

Sorry. It's not the back knee that should not go past the toe.  Its the front knee.  Thought that would be obvious when you are doing a lunge.  My bad :-)

 Why can the back knee go past the toes but the front knee can't?  What changes in the knee when you place it in front of the other one that all of a sudden makes it unsafe to go past some arbitrary point?

Have you seen a lunge?  Maybe we are talking about a different kind of lunge, but the one I am talking about looks like a runner/crescent pose in yoga.  By definition, with the back leg extended out and the toe down, the knee has to be beyond the toe.

Melkor, you say a lot of things that make sense.  But I can point out 1000 studies that say the opposite of every study you point out on the internet.  You really need to keep your knee stable when you lunge and tracking over your ankle.  I learned this the hard way doing P90X.  Maybe my muscles were imbalanced, maybe not.  I just know that my lunge is solid as a rock now, and knees problems are fewer and far between.

p.s.  Yes, I exaggerate ;-)

Original Post by wesmckean:

Have you seen a lunge?  Maybe we are talking about a different kind of lunge, but the one I am talking about looks like a runner/crescent pose in yoga.  By definition, with the back leg extended out and the toe down, the knee has to be beyond the toe.

 We're definitely talking about the same kind of lunge, and yes by definition the back knee has to go beyond the toe.  But that doesn't answer my question as to why it's ok for the back knee to go beyond the toe and not the front knee.  What's different about the front knee that make it unsafe for it to go beyond the toe/ankle/whatever while the back knee can do so safely?

'course, there's some considerations with the walking or dynamic lunge that makes it something you need to work your way up to - it quickly exposes any strength imbalances and weaknesses in your quads.

 Mike Robertson has a training progression for the lunge that starts with static lunges - the dynamic lunges that p90x have you doing is something you need to work your way up to.

As with all forms of repetitive exercise, form is everything.  Maybe not keeping your knee over your ankle exposes those imbalances or exaggerates them.  I don't know.  I'm not that smart.  I just do what smart people tell me to do and temper that with what works for me  

For squats I can give one suggestion. Make sure your knees don't go over your toes. A trick to know that the knees aren't over the toes is that you shoud be able to lift your toes while in squat position.  This means you're in fairly good form!

Original Post by reenascalories:

For squats I can give one suggestion. Make sure your knees don't go over your toes. A trick to know that the knees aren't over the toes is that you shoud be able to lift your toes while in squat position.  This means you're in fairly good form!

reenascalories missed our entire debate... hahahahahaha!  

Original Post by wesmckean:

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by wesmckean:

Sorry. It's not the back knee that should not go past the toe.  Its the front knee.  Thought that would be obvious when you are doing a lunge.  My bad :-)

 Why can the back knee go past the toes but the front knee can't?  What changes in the knee when you place it in front of the other one that all of a sudden makes it unsafe to go past some arbitrary point?

Melkor, you say a lot of things that make sense.  But I can point out 1000 studies that say the opposite of every study you point out on the internet.  You really need to keep your knee stable when you lunge and tracking over your ankle.  I learned this the hard way doing P90X.  Maybe my muscles were imbalanced, maybe not.  I just know that my lunge is solid as a rock now, and knees problems are fewer and far between.

 So can you point out an opposite study?  I'm curious...

I'd suspect the lunges and that's already been covered. But make sure when you squat you are pushing out of the hole with your weight on your heels. Like a lot of people, when I haven't been working on my flexibility, I tend to shift my weight to the balls of my feet when I hit depth on squats and that stresses the knee. Also make sure your knees follow the alignment of the feet (knee over the toes is fine, they just need move in the same direction your toes are pointing). Good luck!

Original Post by snapshot8d:

 So can you point out an opposite study?  I'm curious...

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/knee_pain.h tm

I can't vouch for the level of "expertness", but this is what I found in 83 seconds....

and he does say it is only a problem if your knee goes past the toe and your heel leaves the ground...