Are Our Lives Destined by Fate?

I for the best part have always believed that we are in charge of our own Destiny, but I have had occasions to doubt this and wonder if Fate actually controls it!

I have set out on a path that I have thought was the best one to take, but then part way along it things would seem to turn against me and I feel like I am being pushed into taking a completely different direction.

Is it coincidence or is there something else at play to put me on the path that I should be on?

What are your thoughts?

the idea that we choose our destiny before hand is predicated on the assumption that as spiritual beings comprised only of energy (and I believe, love) that what we consider pain and horror are essentially merely tools.

much the way gravity doesn't exist in space, human suffering doesn't exist in the spiritual realm.

that doesn't mean we don't try to help people, as humans, it just means that the question of 'why so much pain' isn't really a question to our spiritual selves.

Kathy - I'm largely made of two equal halves: my logical and my emotional side. I understand what you say and I can see the truth in it logically. I've never heard it put that way before and I feel that words will not properly convey my gratitude to you for your explanation. I also think that it'll be something like 5 or 10 years before my emotional side has developed far enough to actually accept that. There is just so much pain and suffering (in case it hasn't shown yet I'm extremly empathic) that it seems almost impossible. The amount of things that go wrong are ridiculous. The flip side is that there are just as many good things happening. Just as many compliments being handed out as there are insults, if not more. I just don't see them as often as I see the bad stuff (yay media! Gore entertains...). Maybe our souls don't consider suffering as a bad thing? They look on it as a learning experience instead of something that is emotional? Well, I think that's more than a maybe but it still does NOT settle things for me. Also, if people are out there to experience suffering who is to say I'm not here to lessen it?

sng - Thanks. I felt embarassed when I read that (and happy), lol. I do the same thing for little kids when they walk away from their guardian. I'll make sure that I'm in a position to act if my help is needed. It's not that big a deal - no one ever notices. I'm happy protecting people silently, cause protecting is what I want to do.

Pg - thanks. Is that on two lanes or 3? I bet that there are those who notice and appreciate it. I also meant to respond to your posts in my 2nd one but it seemed to have slipped my mind at the time so I'll respond now! I agree with your response to loislane - it all depends on your beliefs and your perspective on the way things play out. Have you ever read The Colour Purple? It's a tough read at first but rewarding and goes into some interesting spiritual topics as it progresses. The topics in the book seem to ring alongside your view of there being meaning in everything. I'm not sure if everything little action and gesture has meaning. I do support the belief that every THING has meaning. Anything that breathes has a meaning and a purpose. Plants, trees, animals, birds, bees and all that jazz. Each existence serves a purpose of some sort. I like your words "exchange of energy". I believe each exchange has a meaning as well (which may end up contradicting myself, I haven't fully thought this through, but I'm agreeing and thinking and growing nonetheless!).

 I was really happy to hear how you ended up in your graduate program! I've noticed the impact that the energy we have has on others. I've felt my mood lifted by a casual smile from a stranger. I've also felt people trying to drag down those around you. To anyone who doesn't quite believe in this I have a little experiment for you to try - and it may or may not work, because in the end it'll come down to you believing in coincidence or your own ability to transmit your will and energy - when you are in a confined area with a baby that is crying close your eyes and focus your energy on the baby and the sound. Transmit calming thoughts and energy - reassure the baby that things are alright, that they are safe and secure and that you are with them supporting them. I've done this a few times and I must say that I have had some much more pleasant plane rides because of this (a couple of times the baby stops almost instantly when I start to concentrate on it, and then will restart when I stop concentrating...geez!).

Anndjoe - why does our purpose have to be more complex? I find that often we add complexity to things that are simple. Losing weight - it's simple. It is a simple choice. It's not easy, but it is simple. Why can't our purpose be the same? Why can't it just be simply to live and enjoy? In whichever way you see fit. This allows everyone to just be - even the ones who would do harm, for there will always be those who desire to stand against them. I agree on the talent idea. It may not be a talent per say, but we all have something that sets us apart from the vast majority of people. We also can develop and grow into whatever we desire.

Nessa - isn't it rather amazing that one moment, one person can change our lives if only we let them? Sometimes even if we don't, lol. I hope things work out in a way that leaves you happy and better off.

Julie - I understand quite well how you feel on the addiction. I love to drink, but it by no means that I do it frequently. I can go for a month or two without a drop and I don't feel any different for it. Then one night I can go out, have 10 drinks and not drink again for 3 weeks if the opportunity doesn't arise. There is no hold on me with any of those things, I enjoy them but I don't NEED them to enjoy life. They are merely an enhancer.

Do you turn away from the idea of a "meaning to life" because of the horrible things that people do/associate it with? Is it just not for you because of your view on the way it's been used or because of the way you view the world? I've also had/seen things happen to my parents such as happened to you. Sometimes money would get very tight and they'd need some extra cash to pay the bills that month and then my dad would get an offer to teach an extra course for the summer or something like that. All of a sudden things were at least doable. That has strongly affected me.

Nomo - I think one could make a very good point. In the end people will do what they want right? There will be those who don't care about others suffering unless it affects them, there will be those who want to be seen as caring but who don't really, there will be those who do care. You may surround yourself with which ever you choose or any variation there of.

 

Original Post by decarswell:

Kathy -  There is just so much pain and suffering (in case it hasn't shown yet I'm extremly empathic) that it seems almost impossible. The amount of things that go wrong are ridiculous. The flip side is that there are just as many good things happening. Just as many compliments being handed out as there are insults, if not more. I just don't see them as often as I see the bad stuff (yay media! Gore entertains...). Maybe our souls don't consider suffering as a bad thing? They look on it as a learning experience instead of something that is emotional? Well, I think that's more than a maybe but it still does NOT settle things for me. Also, if people are out there to experience suffering who is to say I'm not here to lessen it?

Pg - thanks. Is that on two lanes or 3? I bet that there are those who notice and appreciate it. I also meant to respond to your posts in my 2nd one but it seemed to have slipped my mind at the time so I'll respond now! I agree with your response to loislane - it all depends on your beliefs and your perspective on the way things play out. Have you ever read The Colour Purple? It's a tough read at first but rewarding and goes into some interesting spiritual topics as it progresses. The topics in the book seem to ring alongside your view of there being meaning in everything. I'm not sure if everything little action and gesture has meaning. I do support the belief that every THING has meaning. Anything that breathes has a meaning and a purpose. Plants, trees, animals, birds, bees and all that jazz. Each existence serves a purpose of some sort. I like your words "exchange of energy". I believe each exchange has a meaning as well (which may end up contradicting myself, I haven't fully thought this through, but I'm agreeing and thinking and growing nonetheless!).

Anndjoe - why does our purpose have to be more complex? I find that often we add complexity to things that are simple. Losing weight - it's simple. It is a simple choice. It's not easy, but it is simple. Why can't our purpose be the same? Why can't it just be simply to live and enjoy? In whichever way you see fit. This allows everyone to just be - even the ones who would do harm, for there will always be those who desire to stand against them. I agree on the talent idea. It may not be a talent per say, but we all have something that sets us apart from the vast majority of people. We also can develop and grow into whatever we desire.

 I think pain is part of life! life is made up of an equal balance of both pain and pleasure. It's how we cope with it that has significance. We can either let it destroy us or we can learn from it and become stronger. Even within the circle of pain there is something good that can come out of it. You can only see this if you open your mind and see the entire picture, not just the bits that have caused you pain.

Human "purpose" is more complex because it isn't as clearly defined as that of every other living thing. To use "the circle of life" everything can be put into a predefined position except humans! where do humans fit in?

However that is the bigger picture the Ultimate purpose of life. As you bring it closer to actual individuals the purpose is still complex, because there are so many things that can make it up. We often have things to deal with before we find our purpose "emotional disability" but ultimately we are heading towards a goal. That goal is the main purpose of us being born, and it could be anything from learning to love yourself, to being a world class brain surgeon, to a top athlete. You can't do any of these unless you have dealt with the emotional disability first. It's easy to hate or allow negativity to rule your life. Humans are the only creatures on the planet that nurture imbalance yet you can't reach your purpose until you have a balanced state of mind.

I meant to comment this weekend and didn’t get a chance. I too have struggled with the idea/theory that our souls/spirits have scripted our lives out before coming to earth. When I was first approached with the idea that I chose the circumstances of my birth, that I actually chose my parents and brother, I rebelled at the thought. The idea that I chose my parents really pissed me off. It made me angry. I wanted no part of the theory. My parents were not abusive and they weren’t as bad as many parents I have come to see over the years, but neither one of them should have ever had children.

I don’t have good answers for this theory. One of the things that bothered me the most is that it somehow seems like the truth to me and I don’t like it. As Decarswell so elegantly explained it bothers me from an emotional aspect. I have such a hard time picturing any spirit/soul choosing to incarnate into what will be a hostile or painful environment from birth. Children being born into a famine or civil war is a good example.

I have mostly come to peace with my childhood and my parents’ lack of parenting skills. I’m pretty sure I have more forgiveness work to do with my mother. I have actually been able to feel gratitude for some of the things I endured as a child, because it made me a much better parent. I actually learned the lessons and didn’t repeat most of the bad parenting I experienced.

When I first encountered this theory I would get very upset that my soul/spirit would decide to put me through such crap. I couldn’t understand how any soul/spirit could lovingly choose this stuff for an emotional entity to experience.

I don’t pretend to have answers for some of these questions. I do sincerely believe we do come here in many incarnations to learn, experience and grow. I intellectually understand that there are many things that can not be learned without having experienced the opposite effect.

I can remember a time when I wanted to have no part of the universe. I don’t mean committing suicide and leaving earth. I mean not wanting to be a part of a universe that functioned by using living/breathing/feeling beings as guinea pigs for spiritual growth. I guess it sort of hit me that my life here on earth as the particular being I am now really didn’t mean anything other than an experiment. I have evolved out of those feelings. That was not a fun place to be in.

the idea that we choose our destiny before hand is predicated on the assumption that as spiritual beings comprised only of energy (and I believe, love) that what we consider pain and horror are essentially merely tools.

much the way gravity doesn't exist in space, human suffering doesn't exist in the spiritual realm.

Kathy, this is one of the first explanations I’ve heard that satisfies my displeasure with the theory. It gives me much food for thought. Thank you.

moonkins, I can really relate to most of what you have said. I didn't write about it because I couldn't have explained it so well.

I know where you are coming from though. I am pleased that like me you have managed to deal with the emotions.

I truly am thankful you created this thread. There have been so many good posts. It is so good to see this discussed.

yeah I have taken a lot from what people have said, all very helpful.

not to muddy the metaphorical waters on the way to tangential tributaries, but gravity does, in fact, exist in space

I'm pretty sure.... even though i failed at physics... I'm pretty sure that without gravity, we wouldn't be going around and around the sun like we do on this hunk of rather moist rock

*ponders*

much the way sound doesn't exist in space?

much the way breathable air doesn't exist in space?

...

not that this is specifically relevant to kathy's point because I understand the concept of there being no suffering in the spiritual realm, although if that were the case, then it kind of eliminates any motives for ghosts to hang around, if you think there are such phenomena

...

i would also like to thank the people who have participated in this thread -- you've shared of yourselves in a deep and meaningful way and while I'm not sure if I can articulate exactly how I agree or not with what has been discussed here, especially with regards to the 'purpose of life', it has been wonderful to read your thoughts -- thank you!

 

agree. bad analogy. :)

I think ghosts are less evolved spirits that still carry around enough fear to be human, and so don't understand their true purpose. but that's just my humble opinion. :) 

I've also heard that ghosts are spirits that are unable to let go of the earthly realm and move to the next dimension usually because their energy is tied emotionally to earth, sometimes a person, sometimes the manner of their death.

Original Post by decarswell:

Julie - ...

Do you turn away from the idea of a "meaning to life" because of the horrible things that people do/associate it with? Is it just not for you because of your view on the way it's been used or because of the way you view the world? I've also had/seen things happen to my parents such as happened to you. Sometimes money would get very tight and they'd need some extra cash to pay the bills that month and then my dad would get an offer to teach an extra course for the summer or something like that. All of a sudden things were at least doable. That has strongly affected me.

 I think I turn away from it for many of the same reasons I turn away from religion.  No one really knows.  I can never really know.  So, trying to figure it out is kind of a big fat waste of time.  If there are true answers, they will be revealed when the time comes. 

In the meantime, I try to live my life in a way that is fulfilling to me.  I try to live in a way that does not cause injury or distress to others and I try to alleviate the injury or distress of others if it's within my power.  If there is a meaning to my life, hopefully those actions will bring it to fruition.  If there is not a meaning to my life, I still lived the best way I knew how and I can (hopefully) die without regrets.  I guess I just don't see how believing that there is a guiding hand/purpose/meaning/path/fate changes that.  So, rather than trying to ascribe a meaning to each event in my life, I just take it as it comes.

I wonder, were there ever times when your parents didn't have enough money to pay the bills and no offer came through?  They just had to shuffle things around and make the money they had work as well as possible.  Those times probably don't stand out in our minds as well as the times things did fall into place.

I was really happy to hear how you ended up in your graduate program! I've noticed the impact that the energy we have has on others. I've felt my mood lifted by a casual smile from a stranger. I've also felt people trying to drag down those around you. To anyone who doesn't quite believe in this I have a little experiment for you to try - and it may or may not work, because in the end it'll come down to you believing in coincidence or your own ability to transmit your will and energy - when you are in a confined area with a baby that is crying close your eyes and focus your energy on the baby and the sound. Transmit calming thoughts and energy - reassure the baby that things are alright, that they are safe and secure and that you are with them supporting them. I've done this a few times and I must say that I have had some much more pleasant plane rides because of this (a couple of times the baby stops almost instantly when I start to concentrate on it, and then will restart when I stop concentrating...geez!).

Decarswell - I never thought of trying that. I have felt how my energy has impacted someone and how someone's has impacted mine. Here's one I heard about from an article on out of body experiences. I now do it all the time.

Someone was in a bad car accident. She was seriously injured. She could feel herself leaving her body. She said she remembered seeing her body trapped in the car and she could feel other people's thoughts around her. The accident caused a huge traffic jam and many motorists were angry. She could hear them ranting and fuming about being held up in traffic. Just as she was about to lose hope, she felt a warm white light. She could feel a different kind of thought. Somone in one of the cars was sending her healing energy and hope. She could hear the person saying things like, "I hope you know someone is thinking about you." "Just hang on, the paramedics are there right now." "I'm sending you love and energy." She said it gave her renewed hope and the next thing she knew she was in the ambulance and could hear the paramedics asking her questions and could hear her own voice answering them. Later the ER docs told her the paramedics had almost lost her.

Now everytime I hear any kind of emergency vehicle or pass an accident, I concentrate and tell the injured that I'm thinking about them and that I care. I let them know there is love out there for them. Sometimes I can feel the energy going out from my body.

Edited for typos.

I have always thought that God ( whatever form you want) has a end goal for us. How we get there is our decision. He'll set up options for us, but then back off unless we need him. I saw an episode of Futurama that really was interesting. A quote that sturck me as poignent was " if you do it right, they won't know if you've done anything at all" or something along those lines.

I truly believe that life will never throw at you more than it knows you can handle, but it is up to you too handle it.

It will never leave you destitute unless you allow yourself to be destitute. It gives you what you will need good and bad and one will counter balance the other.

thank you mooni. that story has changed my perception of what I can and can't impact. although I have focused energy in that way for people I know, or have been specifically asked to pray for, it never occurred to me to focus it in that scenario. :)

I am better for having read this thread.

Wow, great thread. Though I admit I am a materialist and therefore unconvinced by the notion of cosmic justice, fate, and/or souls. I personally believe that we as a species try very hard to avoid believing in simple coincidence and luck, and that our memories are selective - and our personal narratives, though necessary for our continued sanity, are even more selective. (I create - and cherish - my own narratives, too: no judgment here). That said, the great part about being human is our ability to choose our actions with a higher purpose in mind (I am not convinced that we are the only species that does this, nor does this represent most of the choices our species makes, but there you have it).

Andy, it sounds like you are searching for a destination instead of enjoying the journey, perhaps afraid that you will run out of time to achieve a life you can be proud of and satisfied with.  Let me tell you that when you make choices based on compassion and courage (like decarswell so excellently illustrated in his much-lauded post, and I'm sure we can all think of lots more examples), and when you muddle through this world with a kind heart and open eyes, you are creating a life you can be proud of, no matter what path you're on. This is not karma, it is simple reciprocity and the basically decent nature of people - when treated kindly, people grow in their own kindness and give it back to you/your community. Let me be clear - no force other than random chance (and, occasionally, human evil), IMO, can be responsible for the vast and terrible differences between the comfortable and the suffering in this world, and the unpredictability of disaster. Or, at least, no force that I could possibly respect enough to acknowledge or accept.

I also am of the opinion that what most people accept as Fate, some people decide to ignore that option and change it - and they are often (but not always) surprisingly successful in this quest. As recently as a generation or two ago, for instance, the timing and number of one's children was one of the greatest acts of "fate" - and it is now something people control every day. The food supply, likewise, is so much more under human control than it ever was. These are big things, where mammals are concerned.

Another aspect to your question is the vast unexplored territory (theoretical, of course) of the unconscious mind. I happen to believe somewhat in this idea - that we shape our own lives, choose many of our actions, without ever realizing exactly how or why, based on deep motives that may or may not be "examined". I recognize that this comes close to the "directing inscrutable soul" notion, the only exception being the timing (immortal soul vs. mortal unconscious), which is why I say "somewhat" - because our condition and our path are subject to hundreds of forces entirely beyond our control. I simply cannot accept the idea that what seem to me to be clearly acts beyond our control (including where we are born and to whom), would have been "chosen" by us ahead of time. (I worry sometimes that the "directing preborn soul" theory is present merely to soothe our feelings of inadequacy and powerlessness in the face of such terrible and powerful random chance.) However, I think there is something to be said for the idea that not all of our choices and actions are consciously understood.

So in the end, for me, it comes down to the Serenity Prayer, even though I am not and have never been an alcoholic ;)  - and I take god out of the quote, of course:

May I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

It is possible to make the world a better place, to make it a place you want to live in. To improve your community, your country, your planet. The dilemma there is that one must do so without burning out. The "needs of the self", aka selfishness, must be indulged to a certain extent, or we will not be able to sustain compassion for others. You will find a path that both sustains you and improves the world. You will work it into the narrative of your life and create your own stories of Fate/Destiny and they will seem as real to you as anything else in this world. When I talk about my life, I have such notions tightly entwined in my own narrative, even though part of me recognizes that it is just my own narrative and only loosely factual/objective. A certain cognitive dissonance where Fate is concerned might well be the burden to bear for all rationalists (or, at least, those who keep their better mammalian qualities).

So, in short, stop thinking of these directions as false starts - they are milestones in a life. Life is not what is still lying out there in wait for you - it's what you are experiencing right now. :)

I have just taken time to re-read this thread and I have to say a big thank you to everyone who took time to reply. All of you have made a point that I can relate to. I analyse my life too much and sometimes lose site of what is right in front of me.

I have to say trustwomen, you seem to read me so well. What you say is so true I have been looking for a destination "A place I want to call home" and as yet I have never found such a place. I have always said the day I throw out my packing boxes is the day I'll be home! I still have them. My poor family are always asking me "to please settle", but I can't, I have this constant urge to keep moving. When this urge surfaces it makes me so uneasy until I move. I have had so many wonderful things happen to me, I have met so many people who have influenced my life in some way, I have had so many strokes of good luck, but still I have the need to keep moving. I never know where I will go, I literally get up one morning and say that's it I'm going to ????? sometimes I don't even do that I just go, get on a plane, or drive and see where I end up.

I in my life so far I have had so many near death instances that people wonder sometimes why I am still alive. Something must be watching over me.

You are so right I should enjoy the journey I am taking, and yes I have to say you are also right that I get scared that I will run out of time! I have never looked at my life the way you describe as something to be proud of because of who I am and how I am with other people. Nor have I ever thought of life as what I am experiencing right now.

pg, moonikins and decars replies all hit home, decars gave me goose bumps, but yours gave me goose bumps and tears in my eyes *Thanks*

I really can't say thank you enough to all of you for making this thread as good as it is

hee hee andy, a) thanks for the kind words and b) your self-description reminds me of my favourite show as a child, the littlest hobo (Canada's answer to Lassie). It was about a german shepherd that traveled around meeting new people and getting them out of jams. At the end of the show the dog would always leave on his new adventure (hopping on an open traincar or the back of a truck, or just ambling down the road), and the kid (there was almost always a kid) was sad, but eventually understood that the dog "belonged to the world". check out the theme song. It was a great show. (song's ending line used to be "until tomorrow, the whole world is my home")

As a little girl, I used to want to be JUST like the littlest hobo. :)  In some ways, I still try.

trust, didn't you always want him to stay?  that damn show pissed me off every week.  just stay, dog!

p.s. do you really think he was a german shepherd?  he seemed like some kind of cattle dog to me.  oh - and thanks for getting that song in my head (no, i didn't click the link.  it's still that fresh).

They were all german shepherds - the original dog was "London". Wikipedia informs me that the series I watched from '79-'85 was not actually the original series, but a remake - who knew? It's the only one I ever knew existed until a few minutes ago. There is more detailed information at this guy's blog page about the show.

I sometimes wanted him to stay but I, like the kids on screen, romanticized his free life on the road and accepted that he could never be a mere possession or plaything - the world needed his talents. (Maybe that's when I started being a feminist?) ;)

(p.s. andy, sorry for the mini-hijack, promise I'll stop now)