mechanical eating-revisted

hi everyone-

so im trying to gain weight and recovering from anorexia.  right now i eat according to a schedule and most of the time pre plan meals+snacks.  i eat whether or not im hungry and bc its been preplanned and scheduled.  i dont often crave any certain foods and if i dont preplan i have a difficult time thinking what to have.  i find that my hunger/satiety cuues are completely skewed and that ill eat bc i know i have cals left over.

when will this change?  when will i eat normally?  i feel as though my body doesnt talk to me or that i just cant hear it?

any advice?

thanks

hi agruskin. im going through a similar thing, with recovering from anorexia. all my meals are planned and im almost never hungry unless i go for a long time without eating. however ive been eating like this for about a month or a little more and find that occasionally i will get hungry. for example after breakfast i find that sometimes i actually am hungry when i have to eat my snack. so dont panick it does start to get a little easier and you will start to feel hungrier. good luck to the both of us and on your recovery!

You're still in a 'retraining' phase.... When some bodily function has got out of kilter it has to be gently coaxed back into a schedule.   Takes time.  

But don't worry that you're not 'normal'.... because there's a big range of 'normal'.   Some people religiously wait until they are hungry before eating, others prefer to stick to set mealtimes hungry or not, others can't stand feeling hungry ever and are grazing through 6 little meals a day.  All kinds.  So there's a lot of definitions of 'normal' out there.  What's vitally important is to find your way of dealing with your particular 'normal' so that you're getting the right amount to eat.....  If a structured day and planned meals is doing the job then stick with it.... soon it'll stop feeling contrived and become second nature.

thanks GIJANE.  i just hate taking time to make sure im eating enough at the meal, or enough of a certain food, or preplanning, or not being able to "hear" my body bc i never seem to crave a certain food and have a really hard time deciding on what i want to eat, part of why i need to preplan. 

sort of unrelated but something thats bothering me, ive been averaging anywhere from 1900-2250 the past 1-2wks or so and think i have gained a bit, should i really be at 2500 in order to gain and recover my metabolism? 

thanks a bunch!

If you're underweight (BMI <19) then you need 2500 cals a day as a minimum if you want to gain steadily.  If you're a healthy weight (BMI 19 - 25) and lightly active then 1900-2200 sounds like it would be enough to maintain your weight.  If you do a lot of sport and other activities then you'd need to add in more energy to allow for that.... 2500 would become 3000+ etc.  As an experiment, how about having a 2500 cal day and seeing if that livens your appetite up?   Include some favourite foods from your childhood perhaps.... that might awaken some forgotten neural pathways!  Go out to dinner and experience some new and different dishes.  Find things that excite you and then try to recreate them at home.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with planning.  If your natural tendency is to undereat then you have to put effort into making sure it doesn't happen and into giving mealtimes priority.  People who's natural tendency is to overeat have to do something similar.  I plan the family's meals myself every week.... partly for budgeting reasons, partly to save time, partly so that we don't say... 'there's nothing to eat let's get pizza'!

Keep with it... It takes about 3 to 6 months in my experience for a new habit (which is what you're effectively doing) to become automatic and to replace the previous bad habit.  Best of luck

Thanks gi-jane. I had the same questions as agruskin (thanks for posting the topic.) My BMI is probably an 11 or 12. I am gaining, slowly on 2500. Would it be better to do 2500 or go up further. Which would help revive my metabolism? In the past I needed 3600 + calories to gain an ounce so it worries me that I am gaining on far less than that. Thanks.

I don't know what you've been advised by the people supervising your treatment but, if you're only gaining slowly on 2500 cals a day, it sounds like it's not enough to get you out of immediate danger.   (Do you really mean BMI 11/12?)  Your metabolism sounds as though it's quite lively if it's burning off 2500 cals and not storing much of it as fat.....  I can't imagine you do much exercise.

Take advice from your medical team as to what is the best approach for you.  

hi GI JANE!

thanks so much for replying!  rt now my bmi is ~16.4, im a bit under 5'4 and around 94-95lbs, not so active at all.  so i am determined to jump today from ~2000 give or take to 2500 today-sound good?

i have probs remembering foods i once liked-deff a neg effect of the ED.  i used to be slightly overweight and i deff have an appetitie, its just ED voices that inhibit me from eating more and truly listening to my body's unger cues.  i tend to resort to eating out in order to increase my cals more easily, do you have any suggestions?  ill get bagels+tuna salad from the deli or something, maybe pizza, but necessaraly the most healthy stuff.  i do eat ice cream and candy regularly so its not necessaraly a fear for me or something that i restrict.

thanks sooooo much!

2500 sounds like a very good move.   It's a bit of a myth that any foods are 'unhealthy'.   All foods have good properties and can be part of a healthy diet.   What's pizza after all?.... Bread? (staff of life), tomato, mushrooms, peppers (vegetables), some salami or anchovies (a little tasty protein), olive oil (food of the gods) and some good mozarella over the top (calcium)! 

Ice-cream... same thing.  Really good quality dairy ice-cream is made with cream, sometimes egg-yolks, some sugar, a flavouring of some kind.   Good quality chocolate with a high % cocoa solids is a lovely thing to eat.   There's nothing intrinsically unhealthy in any of these foods.   

There are are plenty of foods you can choose which will bump up your calorie-intake and hopefully liven your appetite at the same time.   And do cook at home.  Eating out is never very satisfying (but maybe delegates the blame?.... once-removed eating by proxy?)   Trying new foods and recipes is really taking charge of things and engaging positively with food.  Time taken preparing raw ingredients, the aroma of something sizzling on the hob, tasting things on the end of a wooden spoon gets your mouth watering and gastric juices flowing well before the dish is ready! 

 Oils are fantastic as a dressing or as a cooking medium.... Just an extra tablespoon of olive oil and you're 140 cals nearer your target.  A knob of good butter on jacket potato... same thing.  Some tangy feta cheese in a greek salad, plenty of juicy black olives, crusty ciabatta bread.... some thick Greek Yoghurt laced with runny honey and chopped nuts....  all crazily healthy higher-cal things.   Try to avoid bland, tasteless food .  No-one gets excited about that.  Chillis!  Curries!!  A little ginger here, plenty of garlic there....  

PS... if they're around, ask your parents and grandparents what your favourite foods were as a child.  They'll know.

GIJANE-hi!  so ive asked my parents what i used to like bc i cant remember, and they look at me like im nuts and dont really help.  also, my parents dont really cook, mostly randomly snack or rely on eating out or just buying snacks out.  i eat ice cream almost daily but a light one bc when i tried regular i got a really bad stomach ache.  i eat 2% greek yogurt almost daily-switch to regular?  i suppose thatd bump it up ~150 cals.  i also eat about 1/2 candy bar a day and sometimes chips or pudding too.  i really hate cooking, thats a big prob for me and have been relying on frozen foods-chicken nuggets, pizza, french fries...i hate taking the time to even make tuna salad and will sometimes prepare a lot of it on sunday to have made for the week.  i dont use dressing or oil bc its a been sort of a fear i suppose. 

i think for this to work i need fast easy to grab foods or someone else making my foods for me, which is tough and lazy sounding i suppose. 

thank you so muc and i will get to 2500 today, altho i still feel like junk food may play a large role in that.-yuck

gi-jane: Thanks for responding to my piggybacking on agruskin's question. I cannot afford a doctor but do see a therapist and, occasionally, a dietitian. I have been battling anorexia for over 20 years with only brief periods of recovery following in-patient treatment. This is the first time I have gained weight on my own. I do not know my actual weight but, based on past experience, am guessing it to be in the 60's (I'm not quite 5'2".) Friday, I asked my dietitian if I should bump up my calories to 2800 to help repair my metabolism. She said that although I am gaining slowly, she thinks it would be too scary for me to try 2800 and 2400-2600 was fine. But from what I have read, higher calorie levels are better for recovering anorexics so I am confused. I sent her an e-mail but she is on vacation. I do exercise, primarily walking. I have cut back on the amount I do but it is still a problem. Could the walking be why my body is gaining, it still is in starvation mode? Any advice would be most appreciated, I'm not trying to undermine the dietitian's words, I'm just confused. Thank you for your time.

charliebo Someone 140lbs and classed as lightly active would expect to gain 1lb a week eating 2500 cals a day.  If you're a lot lighter but gaining weight more slowly than 1lb a week then logic suggests you are burning off the energy another way.... exercise.  In other words, your metabolism is working reasonably normally but you're doing too much walking to gain weight.  If you were in starvation mode your metabolism would be very slow and 2500 cals a day would see you gaining very rapidly as a result.

Is your dietician right assuming that you'd find 2800 cals 'scary' or would you be prepared to give it a go?  Gaining weight is simply about consuming a lot more than you burn up.  3000-4000 and a big reduction in exercise may be what you need right now to get the weight on quicker.

agruskin...   I think if you rely on eating out and junk food you'll actually find things more difficult rather than easier and you'll be disappointed with the results.  Sounds as though your parents didn't set you a good example growing up and gave you a very poor diet.  And a poor diet does a lot more damage than simply make someone overweight... it affects mental state and causes behavioural problems.   If you could find time to make, say, 50% of your meals from fresh ingredients I think the boost in nutrition you'd get would make you feel healthier, energised and more positive.   And you'd also find it easier to reach and maintain a healthy weight

Salad dressing is a good deal less scary than chicken nuggets.... :-)

gi-jane: Thanks for you help. Simply eating is scary. 2500, 2800, it's all scary. But I am determined because I want to be healthy. I am more concerned about the long-term effects right now. My fear is the one shared by so many, that I will become accustomed to eating the way I am now and, when I no longer need to gain weight, will feel as though I am restricting again, setting in motion a vicious cycle. I know I should concentrate on the here and now but that's never been my forte!

GIJANE-thanks!  yes, despite my parents being moderately overweight they dont eat regularly or healthily and mostly rely on eating out, even small snacks.  the chicken nuggets i mentioned, as well as most of the frozen foods i buy are relativley healthy, or i try too at least.  such as "lightly" breaded fish sticks, veggie nuggets, Kashi brand pizza, Alexia brand natural french fries...

i completely understand and beleive you when you say healthy foods are better than relying on eating out, its just hard, yesterday for example i had 2 grilled cheese sandwiches and 2 PB+J sandwiches during the day bc we had nothing else!

today i plan on buying and making tuna salad for the wk(cooking in my mind lol), what else is relatively cook that i could prepare? i put avocado and clumps of almond butter in my salads too but mostly live on various sandwiches.

thank you so very much JANE!

I'm a fan of pasta and rice salads for lunches.   Plan a pasta meal for the evening, cook double the pasta and save half.....  Then add a chunky selection of tasty flavourings e.g. cherry tomatoes, grilled peppers, chopped salami, olives, feta cheese, olive oil, fresh basil etc., put it all in a big tub, chill overnight and take to work the next day with a pot of yoghurt, some bits of fruit, a bag of nuts and raisins....  If you cook extra rice you can spice it up with some chopped celery, grapes, cooked chicken, spring onion, apple, toasted almonds, peas and some curry seasoning.  

Sandwiches are great.  To avoid them getting boring try different types of bread... ciabatta, wraps, pittas, focaccia, baguettes, granary .... and combine them with different fillings.... hummus, avocado, cheese, meat, fish, pates, salads,.....  Creamy brie, smoked bacon and baby leaf spinach on a granary baguette is a personal favourite!!

There's nothing intriniscally wrong with grilled cheese sandwiches etc.  Don't get me wrong.... in your situation, any food is going to help get you out of the danger zone.  I just think that your old diet with its lack of nutrition made you so unhappy and overweight in the past that your only solution was to stop eating all together....  If you improve your diet at the same time as eating more you can regain weight to a healthy level, you'll feel better about yourself and about life and you'll be much less frightened about ending up like your parents.  Which I'm sure is your ideal outcome.

hi GIJANE!

thanks for all your help!  pasta nd rice are 2 fear foods for me i think bc the portions, yes im trying to gain and i suppose i could have 2 portions, but theyre so small and im always scared that i wont get full from it.  i guess that could be ok in that id just eat more and then maybe gain, but i just dont see pasta and rice as satiating?  is that bad? i therefore rarely eat them or if i do have rice for instance, it will be the side like w/ a peice of chicken for instance.  my normal lunch is a sandwich w/ protein filling lettuce+tomato, yogurt, fruit, and then either a dessert or some PB.  i keep kosher in my house-not out though its weird, so no bacon, but maybe ill get some chumas, do i use that as a spread and add something w/ it?  also, my bmi is about 16.5, i know its under weight and bad, i just really dont know how bad, like am i in dager of dropping dead to put it bluntly?  i already have tons more energy from eating more which is the best thing ever, happier too!  what do you think fo the frozen foods i mentioned?  honestly, i dont see myself having pastas bc im so scared of not getting full from it.  but, i suppose if its in addition to the yogurt and fruit then it could work for lunch!?  the rice dish sounds good-all those things mixed together!  i deff want to be healthy!

thank you so so very much JANE!

There's pasta and there's pasta....  Wholegrain pasta and brown rice and things like sweet potatoes and new potatoes are actually very satisfying in small amounts.  Obviously they don't form the bulk of a meal but a little complex carbohydrate on the plate with some meat/fish/beans and vegetables etc., is an excellent way to get a better balanced and more satisfying meal.  Wholegrain foods provide valuable B vitamins and fibre.  And for someone trying to gain weight... a tiny 1oz dry weight pasta or brown rice is a very handy 100 cals.  So they're good all round for lots of reasons.  Plus they taste great!

No idea what chumas is/are but if it's tasty and it looks good then go for it.  Variety is the spice of life :-)

A BMI of 16.5 doesn't mean you'll drop dead tomorrow but long-term it's not good to be underweight.  Leads to things like bone-density loss and osteoporosis in later life and vital organs can be put under stress.  More immediately, someone being chronically underweight is usually a sign that they are generally malnourished.  So they tend to struggle with the problems associated with vitamin and mineral deficiencies... anaemia, scurvy, tooth/hair-loss, fertility issues, digestive problems, depression, behavioural problems...  You say yourself you're happier because you're eating more.  That's a good sign.

As I said before, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with any foods... frozen nuggets etc. ... as long as they are part of a more balanced diet in general.  It would be unrealistic to expect anyone with your family history to suddenly change overnight.  Just keep trying to make small improvements every day, eating better, trying new foods, making your own lunches... it's all good.

hi JANE!

lol, "chumas" is hummas, sorry about that.  i guess it could be spread on a sandwich with? i dont know?  last night my parents ordered in chinese, i have a terrible problem judging portion sizes bc everything for me is so skewed, i think most things look like too much and when i ask my mother shell say its ok, but i feel like shes lying, well intentionally, in order for me to eat more and gain, i mean my father will come home w bags of candy daily so i dont know if i can trust them.  so the chinese was peices of chicken in a light brown sauce, my problem is that since its not a fillet its so hard to judge, i just pile food on my plate basically and eat till ive finioshed all the food, mainly bc as mentioned before, i dont know if i can trust my satiety cues-its very confusing and difficult the 2 problems together. 

for pasta-you think 1/2 a serving?  bc that would be 1 oz, right?  different potatoes i do eat more freely, its moer a fear of pastas and rice. 

yes, i have lost my period and am fighting to get it back-i just turned 25 btw so im not so young!

im going to the supermarket today, i do plan on getting lots of frozen foods bc theyre so convenient, but also diff breads, cheese, canned tuna, veg for salads, PB,(we have fruit).  i need to break my rut i know, maybe make fish w potato and salad, but cooking that seems like such a pain, maybe im truly just lazy bc frozen foods or sandwiches seem so much easier. 

hmm, what improvement can i make today..i need to think of something!

thank you so much for everything!

Hummus is terrific stuff... makes an excellent sandwich spread. I serve it in wholemeal pittas with things like cucumber slices and baby leaf spinach.  It's very low in calories so spread on a good 2 or 3oz rather than just a scrape.

Piling food on your plate and eating until you've finished is how most people eat :-)   So treat that as a step back to normality and don't worry.

Go for a full serving of pasta.  Be brave!!  Actually, if you weigh out 2oz of dry pasta into a dish it's an incredibly tiny amount and not much bigger when it's cooked.  Serve with plenty of tomato/vegetable sauces flavoured with fresh basil, seafood, chicken, chilli-peppers... a little parmesan over the top.   Have fun at the supermarket... if you only try one new recipe this week I think you'd enjoy it.

JANE-i dont measure my foods, dont have a scale or anything.  im nt planning on getting 1 either bc i think that would only reinforce ED behavior. 

so lets say i get pasta, i should add a portion of protein, a sauce maybe, or protein and veg, then have w yogurt and fruit for lunch?

thank you for everything!

have a great day!