The truth of just cynical fiction?
This video is frightening, that is all I have to say. The most terrifying thing about it is that from my conversations with divorced men, this video isn't that far from the truth.
How have things become like this? This doesn't seem to provide a very strong incentive for people to marry.
yeah, i think that has put me off marriage
i try to keep an open mind, but my gut reaction is run away! run far! run fast!
Original Post by kae03:
living together first does not make marriage easier...I don't have them with me so I won't say it's a fact, but heard that people who lived together first have a higher divorce rate...
This would not surprise me - but I think it has more to do with the fact that people who are raised to believe that living-together-before-marriage-is-wrong are also usually the same people who are raised to believe that divorce-is-wrong. So, they do neither - even if they're miserable in the marriage. (Which is not to say that all, or even most, of these people are unhappily married - just that if they are, they don't see divorce as an option. And that skews the statistics.)
I'd be more interested in seeing if living together first makes for a higher proportion of happy marriages. To be honest, I suspect it won't make a lot of difference.
Original Post by susiecue:
Original Post by kae03:
living together first does not make marriage easier...I don't have them with me so I won't say it's a fact, but heard that people who lived together first have a higher divorce rate...
This would not surprise me - but I think it has more to do with the fact that people who are raised to believe that living-together-before-marriage-is-wrong are also usually the same people who are raised to believe that divorce-is-wrong. So, they do neither - even if they're miserable in the marriage. (Which is not to say that all, or even most, of these people are unhappily married - just that if they are, they don't see divorce as an option. And that skews the statistics.)
I'd be more interested in seeing if living together first makes for a higher proportion of happy marriages. To be honest, I suspect it won't make a lot of difference.
I've never seen any statistics, but I would be willing to bet that the divorce rate for people who live together first is probably about the same as those who don't. For one thing, the fact that marriage is a legally binding relationship and living together is not changes the dynamics of the entire relationship. It's all different once you're married. You can live with someone, and learn about their little idiosyncrasies but that's still not going to help you learn to be married to him or her.
Marriage is and isn't for a lot of couples. There are a lot of factors that play major roles in the outcome. Everyone has a different set of circumstances. Everyone can't be lumped into the same cathegory.
It depends on the person in question and their circumstances in life. Some couples aren't and will never be ready for marriage. Some people are while their mate isn't ready. Some people aren't but will be given potential personal growth. ( or the right potential partner. ) Seriously though. It's pathetic when people come to the conclusion they know what's best for everyone. We don't. There are circumstances that make ' rushing ' the right choice. There are circumstances that make ' waiting ' the wrong choice. Just as there are circumstances that make ' waiting ' the right choice and ' rushing ' it the wrong choice for each couple. There is no right or wrong way to go about the process. There is only the right way for the people involved given their circumstances. Their love. Their life. Ect.
Living together prior isn't the factor that makes or break a relationship. There are other more important issues at hand to be honest in my view. I've known several couples that all delayed marriage and lived together for years prior that are divorced. Co-workers and friends ect. I even have some of friends that waited because their parents wouldn't pay for their college otherwise. Ect. ( Now unhappily married but trying to fix it. They actually think everyone is just as unhappy as they are as sad as that sounds. >_< ) Parents having their say and ultimately making the choice for couples. My husbands sister and brother both lived with their spouses two years prior to marriage. They're divorced now. They were happily living together, but unhappily married. We waited to have children whereas they rushed into baby making. We were accused of rushing into marriage. We didn't feel that we were rushing. Lol We were always asked " What's the wait?! " in regard to children. We were simply doing what was right for us given our circumstances. We married in others view very quickly, but waited where children were concerned. We're still happily married. Some people ' wait ' because everyone tells them to wait. Some people rush because everyone is saying do it.
Seriously though. Some people consider things a rush whereas others view you as delaying things. Why the rush? Why the delay? That goes both ways in regard to having babies, getting marriage, buying a home, ect ect. It depends on the couple in question. It's presumptuous to assume you know what's best for everyone.
p.s. One shouldn't base their faith in marriage on others relationships and choices in life. imho
Original Post by nomoreexcuses:
yeah, i think that has put me off marriage
i try to keep an open mind, but my gut reaction is run away! run far! run fast!
ha ha, those are my same thoughts & reactions about having kids.
Edit: Comment removed as I decided it's not really relevant to all the spite being spewed forth here.
Ok, I'm home and can see it now...
Pissing and moaning about his restraining order and getting his driver's license revoked, neglecting to mention what he did to actually prompt her to file for a restraining order--or what he did to get his license revoked. I remember cops trying to talk me out of filing a restraining order once, and another female friend of mine going through the wringer in family court--even though the guy had broken her arm at one point! But guys like this always claim that it's all automatically biased against them.
Now I'm watching his other rant about how women don't like it when he flashes them in public or something. So quit whining, do some sit-ups, and pass out magnifying glasses, idiot!
He also seems obsessed with the Feministing blog and wrote a song about one of their writers? "Uptown Jew?"--used as an insult? Ooh, nice splash of anti-Semitism to give the misogyny that little extra kick!
LOL I believe coffincritter has found a new friend. He's a misogynist too? haha..
I don't know what he did, or even if he had a restraining order against him. I assume it goes along with grounds for divorce—inflicting unnecessary emotional or physical pain.
I've heard similar stories from divorced men that have corroborated with what this guy says. I've even found an article that talks about gender bias in divorce court.
Now I just need to find some valid statistics from a professional source to see what all the fuss is about. Needless to say, this is something I'm definitely going to investigate more, and if anyone knows where some valid statistics are, hit me up!
Uptown Jew? Maybe his parents are Palestinians. haha..
"misogynist too"? Yes he's a misogynist, who else is a misogynist in this discussion?
Like I told the no sex till marriage chick in the other thread, do you have examples from a non-biased source?(i.e. a judicial, governmental or family related site, not a men's site?) Also, he specifically mentions his restraining order and driver's license.
Yes, some men have bad divorces, but from what I've seen and read the claims of the men's movement that women have this incredible unlimited power and influence in a divorce just seem to be exaggerated.
Bashing Jews is engaged in by people other than Palestinians. Check out a history book sometime.
I haven't watched that many of his videos. I did see one on Feministing, which was entertaining. I thought he was more of an anti-feminist than misogynist.
I can't find any good statistics yet, is there some type of government agency that would keep statistics on things like this? Census Bureau maybe?
It is true that I haven't found good professional statistics from an unbiased source, but I am suspicious as a result of many anecdotes from divorced men and some articles that affirmed some of the things these divorced men said in their stories. I'm just going to ask the sunglasses dude for statistics! haha...
I found one in that article: According to Divorce-Lawyer-Source.com, 70% of divorces involving children result in the mother getting custody.
Now is 70% a significant percentage and is that source valid?
Jew bashing is a Palestinian Olympic sport. haha.. I have noticed anti-feminists being anti-Semitic as well, but I don't really see the connection between feminism and Judaism. Are the liberals against Jews now because of the high civilian casualties in Gaza?
This link just goes to that men's website again, to an article about celebrity divorces.
I love when people try to differentiate between anti-feminist and misogynist, though I don't run across it as much when I leave my comic-nerd websites! I'm calling early that the next argument will be something along the lines of "but feminists don't want equal rights they want special rights!"
Feminism and Judaism aren't specifically connected, though there are a lot of feminist identified Jewish women and if you delve into Jewish mysticism things can't get interesting. Lilith Magazine is an entire publication devoted to Jewish feminism. As far as liberals go, hey-I know Jewish liberals who consider themselves pro-Palestine and others who feel conflicted. I also have friends who are pro-Israel. I suppose the average liberal Palestine supporter, if asked, would say they are against the Israeli governments actions, but not the Jewish people as a whole. As for why some anti-feminists are also anti-Semitic ,you'd have to ask them.
I copied and pasted the sentence from that site, and the word was hyperlinked automatically.
It's not possible to be an anti-feminist and yet not a misogynist? To me, it seems like a ploy of feminism to call those who are not feminists or anti-feminists misogynists.
Then there is the one that if you believe and support something Feminism strongly believes in and helped make happen such as women's suffrage, you're automatically a feminist, especially if you're female. Isn't it a human right, though? And if we share one value with a group, does it automatically make us a part of that said group? It's just comes off as crude recruitment techniques to me.
To also assume what was is still the same is also incorrect. What is it, four waves now with an emphasis on unequal pay?
Recently, I've ran into a lot of Jews that absolutely detest Muslims and call Islam a religion of hate. That's interesting because not being a fan of Islam myself, I like to see "oppressed" minorities agree with my sentiment.
I asked one of those guys, and to put it simply and edit out some of his profanity, he said that Feminism is about destroying the family, and Judaism is about destroying the gentile race or as they are perjotaviely called by Jews goyim. Very strange indeed...
From pdf file from the u.s. census:
Nearly 6 of 10 children living with only their mother were near or below the poverty line. About 45% of children of divorced mothers and 69% of those raised by never married mothers lived in or near poverty. Children living with their father only (particularly if he was divorced) were more likely to be part of a family with a higher median income than those living with a single mom.
Historically, women have been given custody because both men and women tended to agree that children should not be removed from their mother's care (and few men had any interest in being the primary caregiver). The only time when women did not receive custody was when the men challenged custody and could prove that the woman was a danger to her children (usually because she was a drug addict or a lesbian), or when the woman abandoned the child(ren).
Why are single moms so much poorer than single dads? 1) Women earn 79 cents on the dollar to begin with and 2) Women leave the workforce to have babies and care for infants, thus interrupting tenure and advancement in the workplace and/or ability to further or enhance skills/education.
These statistics do not suggest that women are, as a group, weilding a great amount of power in society (if power is associated with income).
What the freak happened in here?
Original Post by dnrothx:
What the freak happened in here?
Marriage. Evidently, even talking about it breeds chaos and strife.
Original Post by fortius:No "ploy" here. Feminism is a struggle for equality for women. If you don't think women should be treated as equal human beings, you are a misogynist. It's possible to be not feminist and not specifically be misogynist, just someone who doesn't understand or is unconcerned with those issues, but if you are actively opposing our rights, then yes, you're misogynist.I copied and pasted the sentence from that site, and the word was hyperlinked automatically.
It's not possible to be an anti-feminist and yet not a misogynist? To me, it seems like a ploy of feminism to call those who are not feminists or anti-feminists misogynists.
Then there is the one that if you believe and support something Feminism strongly believes in and helped make happen such as women's suffrage, you're automatically a feminist, especially if you're female. Isn't it a human right, though? And if we share one value with a group, does it automatically make us a part of that said group? It's just comes off as crude recruitment techniques to me.
To also assume what was is still the same is also incorrect. What is it, four waves now with an emphasis on unequal pay?
Recently, I've ran into a lot of Jews that absolutely detest Muslims and call Islam a religion of hate. That's interesting because not being a fan of Islam myself, I like to see "oppressed" minorities agree with my sentiment.
I asked one of those guys, and to put it simply and edit out some of his profanity, he said that Feminism is about destroying the family, and Judaism is about destroying the gentile race or as they are perjotaviely called by Jews goyim. Very strange indeed...
Voting should be a human right, but for a long time it wasn't for blacks or women. You're right, supporting one tenet of an ideology doesn't make you part of that ideology, but what about people who misunderstand what feminism is but essentially support most or all of the tenets? Like people who go "I'm not a feminist BUT I support equal pay for equal work, am pro-choice, believe it's ok for a woman to ask a man out, and want stronger measures against domestic violence." Ok, if you think all that and are not "feminist" what exactly are you?
Also I've met a lot of people seem to misunderstand feminism and think it's about relatively trivial things, like not wanting women to wear makeup or shave their legs or ever laugh at dirty jokes. Or if you look at some anti-feminist websites they'll do something like quote from the SCUM Manifesto (which I think is nothing more than misandrist hate speech) and claim SCUM is some huge widespread feminist organization. In reality it was one mentally ill woman in the 60's who shot-not a rapist or a wife beater-but a fairly superficial scenester artist who lost her screenplay.
If four waves later unequal pay is still a concern, you don't see a problem there?
Jews and Muslims have been hating each other for ages. That's nothing new. Ironically, feminists have families and Jews are one of the religions that doesn't even seek to convert people, so what exactly are they doing to destroy gentiles?
Original Post by susiecue:
Original Post by kae03:
living together first does not make marriage easier...I don't have them with me so I won't say it's a fact, but heard that people who lived together first have a higher divorce rate...
This would not surprise me - but I think it has more to do with the fact that people who are raised to believe that living-together-before-marriage-is-wrong are also usually the same people who are raised to believe that divorce-is-wrong. So, they do neither - even if they're miserable in the marriage. (Which is not to say that all, or even most, of these people are unhappily married - just that if they are, they don't see divorce as an option. And that skews the statistics.)
I've seen those stats- and you make a good point. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because people who live together first are more likely to get divorced than those who do not, does not by any stretch mean that the living together CAUSES the divorce.
re: feminism. Agreed that many people misunderstand it. But remember, coffincritter, that equality feminism (as you describe it) is just one type of feminism, there is also difference feminism. The best way I've found to encapsulate feminism is, if you believe women should have access to the same choices and rewards as men, then you are a feminist. I don't think that people who don't believe that are necessarily misogynist (although many are), I think they're just underinformed. At the end of the day, it's just a label, and those who choose to take it have been associated with the misandrists, unfortunately.
Don't the difference feminists support a lot of the same goals, just with more focus on traditionally feminine goals and pursuits being looked at in a more positive light?
I did mention some people who are underinformed or have misconceptions about what feminism is. No, they're not necessarily misogynist. But those who are actively, consciously anti-feminist are. The guy who made these videos--he's demonstrated an awareness of feminist blogs and writers. While he hasn't made it clear how carefully he's read the information, he is aware of it, and either has read through it and rejected it, or has chosen to ignore it. And for the record, I personally don't agree with every single viewpoint posted on Feministing, but I've never read ANYTHING I agreed with 100%, feminist or otherwise.
I'm also concerned with the recent tendancy to market misandry as something "cute"--see all those shirts that say things like "Boys lie" or "Boys are smelly throw rocks at them" with a drawing of a boy getting hit with a rock (What most people fail to realize is that this particular shirt, which gained a lot of attention on men's movement sites, was designed by an illustrator named Todd Goldman, for David & Goliath. Todd is a guy.)
I have three sons. Three. And yeah..those shirts aren't very nice. If a guy wore a shirt saying "Girls stink, throw rocks at them." They would be suspended from school. It's not right.
I try to teach my sons to respect women...not easy sometimes when the media..and the actual girls sometimes, do not even respect themselves the way they should. It all starts with parenting.
Original Post by fortius:
The truth of just cynical fiction?
This video is frightening, that is all I have to say. The most terrifying thing about it is that from my conversations with divorced men, this video isn't that far from the truth.
How have things become like this? This doesn't seem to provide a very strong incentive for people to marry.
Fort- (jblar skip to the end)
It's not about whether they "should", it's whether or not it's avoidable. At some point, you just realize that it's time. You find a gal that bugs you less often than most other gals...someone who is at least fairly hot (pre-baby)...and someone that isn't totally repulsed by your hairy, ugly behind.
Then, you look in the mirror, do the math, and realize you ain't gettin any younger. So...down the aisle you go. You'll have to give stuff up...so will she...you'll get sick of her, she'll get sick of you....eventually you'll either split up or become parents.
The further along you go, the more sick of each other you'll get...but the more used to each other you'll get. And with the looks headed downhill (for both) and the age sneaking up...and the kids and joint possessions multiplying, it gets more and more difficult to split up. Pretty soon you've been married 20 years and peope are coming to you asking for advice on marriage and you're sitting there thinking, "Why the $&%^ are you asking me!?"
So there ya are. You can say, "It'll never happen to me!" But it will. It's unavoidable. And if you do avoid it...someday, when you're pushing 35 and all your friends are talking about their families...you'll be that sad guy that wishes he had a "family". But by then, it's too late. Now you're cruisng the divorcee clubs for gals that are probably past a safe birthing age and are carrying baggage into the relationship the size of a hippo. Or ya gotta cruise the "single mom" front hoping that you can insert yourself in that toxic environment and not end up killed by her ex-con biker ex-husband and hoping that the kid doesn't view you simply as the loser having sex with his mom.
The bottom line is, marriage and religion and laws and all these things that can be inconvenient for those of us that would love to live the life of a porn star 4 days a week...at the end of the day, they serve a purpose. Our society could not flourish if it did not have some type of social order and consequence. At some point, males must be forced into responsibility.
P.S. For JBlar, Everyone has a beatiful soulmate, who is meant to love them for a lifetime...without question...without motive. And happily ever after, etc..., etc..., etc... smooch
I have to add that at the end because discussions like these make jblar sad.
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