Do nice guys finish last?

 For all intensive purposes I'm more or less a nice a guy. I listen to peoples problems, give advice in life, remember things about people, do nice things, and joke around a lot. I'm friends with most everyone and a lot of people like me (Meaning popular). Despite this I've never had a girlfriend and all the guys who aren't like me A.K.A. jerks, seem to get all the girls. Recently my mom was even telling me how her brother in high schools had girls chase them harder when they were more like jerks and that she wanted guys more like that. I ask you, why is that. Why does it seem that nice guys truly finish last?

EDIT: I do have a very good sense of humor and like I said I joke all the time. I'm always making people laugh. I usually don't take myself too seriously anymore and will laugh at all the things I do, escpeically because I'm a klutz. The only time I'm not working on making people laugh is in serious conversations and when I'm concentrating on school work.

EDIT EDIT: I was anorexic last year and that may have a wee bit to do with it. Anorexic people don't exactly feel good about themselves so this whole persona is new to me. Also I have pretty good social senses but horrible flirt senses.

And what women say and do tend to be two entirely different things.

The same can be said for men. Seen it many times.

Original Post by hkellick:

Original Post by jenniferthepennifer:

I tried to watch it once but I just couldn't.. the Pickup Artist is dorky to me. I would never be attracted to a man in a giant furry hat.

*puts on a giant furry hat*
*slides up to Jennifer*
*Says in Deep Voice* Well.. hello there. What's a beautiful woman like you doing in a dump like this?

 *smiles back*

*gently takes off the furry hat and returns it to Pamela Anderson*

Much better!

Original Post by moonikins:

And what women say and do tend to be two entirely different things.

The same can be said for men. Seen it many times.

I believe that is overall a human shortcoming, reguardless of gender.

I know that genrally speaking women like guys who are taller than them, and guys who are older than them. With some exceptions such as Cougars, MILFS, and really tall girls!

Women tend to have this idea of one particular kind of guy they like, but it's not set in stone or rigid. It's usually some superficial qualities about a guy such as he must have dark hair, certain build and so on... Yet personality is so powerful that it will overcome all of these predilections, at least in most cases.

If women were so diverse in their interests, then how do guys who sleep with hundreds to thousands of women exist? Aren't there commonalities there that most if not all women share?

Original Post by fortius:

Original Post by moonikins:

And what women say and do tend to be two entirely different things.

The same can be said for men. Seen it many times.

I believe that is overall a human shortcoming, reguardless of gender.

I know that genrally speaking women like guys who are taller than them, and guys who are older than them. With some exceptions such as Cougars, MILFS, and really tall girls!

Women tend to have this idea of one particular kind of guy they like, but it's not set in stone or rigid. It's usually some superficial qualities about a guy such as he must have dark hair, certain build and so on... Yet personality is so powerful that it will overcome all of these predilections, at least in most cases.

If women were so diverse in their interests, then how do guys who sleep with hundreds to thousands of women exist? Aren't there commonalities there that most if not all women share?

 Very astute and accurate in my opinion.

good salesmen.

Original Post by fortius:

This guy, the Mystery guy has been teaching men this stuff years before this show. He charges 5,000 dollars for men to take what he calls a bootcamp with him to learn how to be good with women. I investigated this, and I do not see many men requesting a refund. You should research it, it's interesting.

You managed to name a lot of superficial things that women disagree on when it comes to attraction, and you seem to be debating a point I didn't make (which is your bag). And what women say and do tend to be two entirely different things.

Despite your snarky demeaning comment, I have quite  extensive experience in reality concerning this stuff, and I'd love to show you sometime. haha..

I know women who LOVE needy guys! I know women who love guys who stalk them! I know women that love insecure guys! I know women that love arrogant guys! Immature guys! Guys who stare at them in the club! Guys who get physically aggressive and abusive! Guys who blow up easily! I know who love guys that do no stand up for them! I know women who love guys that rpesent no challenge whatsoever!

Blah blah, every girl is different! There are girls who love creepy guys! Despite the petty differences, there are universals that apply to the majority if not all. Hahahaha..

And don't get Jblargh started on the her fetish for obese guys with fros!

And what women say and do tend to be two entirely different things

So in other words, you've convinced yourself of yet another generalization about women, which in this case provides that you don't have to believe anything they tell you, especially if they're telling you you're wrong.

You seem to be asserting that because no one wants to be in a threatening situation(your examples of stalkers and abusive men) this somehow "proves" that there are no differences among women and what they want. In actuality all it proves is that they have a survival instinct. (And for the record, I do know women who are with arrogant or immature men, whom they respectively describe as "manly" and "funny". Further proof that not all women will be drawn to the same things. I also know girls who will fall over themselves to boast about how guys "stare at them at the club".)

So Jblargh is attracted to Seth Rogan, so what?(I know someone mentioned him in one of these threads and I assume that's who you mean by "obese guys with fros) I've heard other women say they like him too, and Jack Black. Not my thing, but again,this just reaffirms that to each her own.

My "bag" is arguing your points because what you say tends to be so completely absurd, whether it's maintaining that women are not to be trusted (because we don't do what we say) or that mainstream acceptance of homosexuality will drastically decrease the human population. And by the way, writing "haha" after everything just makes it come across as snide and belittling, which may make people retaliate with snark.

Original Post by fortius:

If women were so diverse in their interests, then how do guys who sleep with hundreds to thousands of women exist?

There are some rich man whores.  Do you think gold digging and groupie behavior is a commonality among women?  If not, what "commonality" are you suggesting?

Besides that, how many average guys are out there that have actually slept with hundreds to thousands of women?  Outside of NBA players and porn stars, I mean.  Seriously - how common is this?

Original Post by fortius:

And don't get Jblargh started on the her fetish for obese guys with fros!

 Haha..I hate you.

I think the men that sleep with tons of women probably just approach tons of women. They probably have been rejected more than the average guy too. <- I keep reading over this statement, I hope it makes sense.

I'm sure they know which type of girls to go after..and I have a feeling it's the drunk and trashy type.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm sure there are commonalities among women when it comes to our preference in men. Luckily our preferences all vary as well.

Your bag is straw man arguments.

Example: I never said that all women were the same, but they do have a lot of commonalities when ti comes to attraction. You're arguing a position that was never made.

Yup, women do not like stalkers and abusive men, that commonality is universal. While we are at it... let's divide the preferences in universal preferences and preferences of the majority. Universal preference is not liking stalkerish, needy, or abusive behavior.

Preference of the majority is stuff like age and height. Most women like an older guy who is taller.

As for staring, it is not polite or attractive, I've never met a woman that was attracted to a a man because he was staring at her. Were your friends attracted to the men staring at them and were attracted because he was staring? Staring and eye contact are two different things. And we're talking about attraction.

I do not know if your friend is describing things about him that are actually manly and funny. Maybe he exposed a different side to you or you perceived him to be this way, even though he is not? Give examples. You could say there is a subjective meaning of arrogant and immature, but there is a more objective one. So give examples.

santonacci, Ther argument is all women are different, and I find that women have a lot of commonalities when it comes to attraction. If 100 or more women sleep with a guy because of a trait, then we can't say ALL women are different on this issue.

EDIT: Send all rebuttles to my PM to keep from derailing this thread any further.

I would much rather date a nice guy than a jerk. Nice guys seem to be a lot harder to find though...which is probably why I don't date much, haha.

Original Post by jblarghp:

I'm sure they know which type of girls to go after..and I have a feeling it's the drunk and trashy type.

 

Well, they at least know to never go after you! haha..

I know, women are all little snowflakes, so special and unique.

I'll take that as a compliment?

Aw, you're so sweet.

There's another factor that no one seems to have pointed out...women/girls have to be at a point and place in their life where they find attention from the opposite gender to be welcome.

Often, girls are not looking to date in their teens or before they've graduated from high school/college.  They may be choosing to focus on their studies and boys are definitely distracting.  When we're young, our parents have a great deal of input into whether or not we date and whom we date.  Even those who are willing to have some kind of romantic involvement are often looking for something more platonic that doesn't involve sex or getting naked.  Since many men/boys have a tendency to push for more than we're comfortable with, sometimes that leaves you all ignored.

Additionally, are you trying to get the attention of a nice girl or just the most popular or prettiest girl?  There are many girls/women who are nice and quiet and shy and do not approach men or are just as awkward.

I remember in Jr. High school having a crush on a boy, Jeff, I definitely never told him and probably spoke less than a dozen words to him.  There is something to be said for just enjoying the attraction rather than acting on it.

Original Post by schnooder:

I have no idea why anyone would date a jerk.  Who strives to date jerks? That would make no sense

 I must introduce you to my sister some time. 

Original Post by fortius:

Your bag is straw man arguments.

Example: I never said that all women were the same, but they do have a lot of commonalities when ti comes to attraction. You're arguing a position that was never made.

Yup, women do not like stalkers and abusive men, that commonality is universal. While we are at it... let's divide the preferences in universal preferences and preferences of the majority. Universal preference is not liking stalkerish, needy, or abusive behavior.

Preference of the majority is stuff like age and height. Most women like an older guy who is taller.

As for staring, it is not polite or attractive, I've never met a woman that was attracted to a a man because he was staring at her. Were your friends attracted to the men staring at them and were attracted because he was staring? Staring and eye contact are two different things. And we're talking about attraction.

I do not know if your friend is describing things about him that are actually manly and funny. Maybe he exposed a different side to you or you perceived him to be this way, even though he is not? Give examples. You could say there is a subjective meaning of arrogant and immature, but there is a more objective one. So give examples.

santonacci, Ther argument is all women are different, and I find that women have a lot of commonalities when it comes to attraction. If 100 or more women sleep with a guy because of a trait, then we can't say ALL women are different on this issue.

EDIT: Send all rebuttles to my PM to keep from derailing this thread any further.

Despite all the PMs you keep sending me, you wrote this on the public forum, and I'm going to answer it on the public forum.

My position is that different women want different things in men. Despite the fact that I've seen at least two other women on this thread express agreement with this, it apparently doesn't match what happens on a scripted and edited TV show, so you dismiss it. Your argument for commonality is that women don't like to be in threatening situations (stalkers and abusers). Yeah, and I'm sure you could also safely say that we all like food and shelter. That's not enough to maintain that we don't all want different things.

Yes, age and height are important to some women. Not to all. For example, what about "cougars", older women who are specifically attracted to men younger than themselves?

As for staring,sometimes an intense stare from across the room can be a sexy thing, and initiate a flirtation. It gives you the option to meet his eyes and smile back, if you so desire. Of course much of this depends on whether or not you consider the man doing the staring to be attractive. The stare itself isn't the make or break act here.

You want an example about my friend, well basically she got involved with a very arrogant and bossy man. He not only gives orders to her, but tries to give them to everyone else in the group, male and female. Other people just don't do what he says or argue with him, after which he'll end up stomping off or sulking. He's also very possessive and somehow convinced her to turn off her cell phone so that the only way to reach her is through his line. The general consensus among our group of friends is that he's arrogant, immature, and controlling, but she just maintains that he's "manly" and "takes charge", is "misunderstood" etc. Obviously no one can tell another person who they can and can't date, but such behavior isn't going to win him any other friends.

Now, since my email is indicating that you've sent me 3 PMs in the past 45 minutes, I'll go see what those are all about.

Abusive and stalkerish behavior are unattractive. Calling many times a day, checking up on her, verbal abuse in the form of insults. Guys will sometimes call a girl many times the next day thinking that it's okay, yet it can come off as stalkerish or controlling.

Women are sexually attracted to Food and shelter? i see..

To the majority of women, age and height do matter. Cougars are an exception, but they represent very little of the female dating population, to my dismay..

IS that  staring or is it gazing?

As for your friend, sounds like she is sucked into the relationship. Women do not find that behavior attractive unless they're deeply committed to the relationship and somehow become bias. Rose tinted glasses. Wait until she breaks up and can think rationally, then ask her again. Sometimes in relationships like that, people will try to frame bad behavior as good to justify  them staying in the relationship. that's a little messed up...

Yep, I was trying to run game on you, but apparently I messaged too much and I came off needy, so I ruined it!

Original Post by fortius:

Abusive and stalkerish behavior are unattractive. Calling many times a day, checking up on her, verbal abuse in the form of insults. Guys will sometimes call a girl many times the next day thinking that it's okay, yet it can come off as stalkerish or controlling.

Women are sexually attracted to Food and shelter? i see..

To the majority of women, age and height do matter. Cougars are an exception, but they represent very little of the female dating population, to my dismay..

IS that  staring or is it gazing?

 

As for your friend, sounds like she is sucked into the relationship. Women do not find that behavior attractive unless they're deeply committed to the relationship and somehow become bias. Rose tinted glasses. Wait until she breaks up and can think rationally, then ask her again. Sometimes in relationships like that, people will try to frame bad behavior as good to justify  them staying in the relationship. that's a little messed up...

Yep, I was trying to run game on you, but apparently I messaged too much and I came off needy, so I ruined it!

I didn't say they were "sexually" attracted to food and shelter (though I wouldn't rule it out; there are a number of sexual fetishes and games relating to food.) My point was that not wanting to be around a stalker or abuser stems from a basic human survival instinct to avoid dangerous situations, much like it is a basic human survival instinct to desire food and shelter. Those behaviors are perceived as threats to safety to a lot of women. When a guy starts stalking you it goes beyond "Oh, I'm not sexually attracted to this". It's more like "Is this guy going to really go psycho and hurt me? Is the guy who's calling repeatedly now going to end up following me from work or camping in front of my building?"

The cougar thing has gotten MEDIA attention only recently, but I knew some older women like that long before I ever heard a term for it. I think gendered expectations are changing and women are feeling more free to express themselves sexual in ways that might have been deemed unconventional or inappropriate in the past. 

Is it "staring" or "gazing"? Sounds like semantics to me.

Yes, my friend is sucked into her relationship. I know finding someone to marry is more important to her than it is to me and my other (unmarried) female friends, which may be a factor in why she justifies this stuff. But again it just goes to show that a woman's state of mind may influence who she chooses to be with. This person is obviously willing to put up with things that other women in her circle of friends wouldn't want.

A game? On someone on a calorie-count site? What in the world for?

What do you think most attraction triggers come down to? Survival.

I always thought there was a difference between gazing and staring. Staring is the creepy stuff, gazing is like staring, but it's different. It has intent, emotion, sexuality, warmth... Staring usually accompanies no blinking eyes, and rigid fixed movements like a deer in headlights. Staring also has a different intent and feel, different motivation. Decent definition anyone? And they're not synonyms!

I would hate to be sucked into a relationship like that. She wouldn't find this behavior attractive from other men, but just from her boyfriend, if you can call it attractive.

Original Post by fortius:

Original Post by cats-eyes:

Nothing turns me off more quickly than insensitivity, arrogance, and know-it-alls (jerks).

But I do think a sense of humour is appreciated by just about everyone. :)

 

 Does any woman here like insensitivity, arrogance, and know-it-alls (jerks)?

I can't speak for the women here, but I can think of many women I know who are attracted to men who are (in my opinion) insensitive and arrogant. They just don't happen to share my tastes and opinions. A comment I find insensitive could, to them, show a quirky or wicked sense of humour.

Similarly, I have friends that my other friends don't like, and vice-versa.  We don't all perceive other people in the same way.

Original Post by ignayshus:

Let me emphasize that you ACTUALLY have to believe it, you can't fake it.

If you believe you suck, then you do, no matter what persona you try trick people into believing.

 anyway zmarsh, back to your op.

you dont have to 'fake' it, but nothing teaches better than experience.  even if you don't feel confident, in some essence you can fake it, till you make it. now im not talking about 'tricking' people, there's a difference. im talking about the willingness to put yourself out there. some times what is in our heads are not actually the reality. its not until we go out there & put ourselves in situations where we find that things are not as bad (or sometimes good) as we imagine.  and the more we do it, the less threatening & the more confidence we can have.  now im not saying you wont get shot down at all, but it comes with the territory. you experience, learn & move on.  each time it can get easier.

you are at a perfect age to start building confidence in yourself but you have to be willing to take some personal risks, even if they are baby steps. and to realize that you'll most likely get hurt (we all have). you have to also start with the way you perceive yourself. what iggy said is true, although i still dont think you're a whiner, i've worked with real whiners! everythings relative tho, i guess.