Observation on American behaviour in current economic conditions

Have been kicked off another thread so will set up a new one.

Just an observation. Why do Americans live so close to the edge. People in threads on job loss on this site have kids in private school and they are not working!! Bad descision after bad decison. Pick a degree you dont like but won't just work in that area to pay the bills. Single parent - decision to have a kid but do not have a stable financial background. Barely finished your education and picky about the areas you are interested in. Seems like the whole of America is like a high school. Barely a sensible decision. Your business really, except unfortunately the infantile behaviour of the American dream will cause a five year world-wide recession.

Stop driving around in your big SUVs - one paycheck away from bankrupcy!!

In all fairness, I see all sorts of people.  I see the ones you've described.  But I also see the ones who do NOT live above their means, do NOT own a bigger house than they can afford, do NOT drive big SUV's and do not have kids in private schools while not working.

I am a perfect example.  Hubby and I have no credit card debt, we live in a smaller house than all of our friends do, but at least we are not one paycheck away from foreclosure.  He and I are not single parents, we are both working in the field that we went to college for, but we would be willing to take another position if it meant feeding our family.

I don't think it's fair to lump all Americans into one group.

CB,

I am sure you will catch hell for this post, but i agree with you.  There is a childlike desire in the US to consume stuff because we want it, and not live within ones means.  Even the current resident of the white house recommended that we "go shopping" in response to an attack on our country.  When things were going south in our economy and our national budget is floated by the Chinese investments, we were given tax rebates which were borrowed against the next generation's future in hopes we would spend them to keep the country and economy moving.  It is crazy.

 I choose not to spend more than I make, all the while living on one income.  Sure, there are rare dinners out, and vacations are camping, but, our kicks are quieter, and we are able to put 15% away each month for the future.  It is a choice of voluntary simplicity. 

Of course, I am fortunate that I have an education, no major illnesses, and a job which pays a living wage and provides health insurance at less than $5,000 a year.  As a college professor at a small religious college, my salary is less than that of a public school teacher, but I still have more advantages than those who have been forced to work for minimum wage.   

The US is a country of grave disadvantages to many and advantages to some.  We also do not do a great job of providing or illustrating financial or economic discipline or education.

Why do people stereotype?

Not all Americans meet your generalizations.

I don't think it's correct to blame ALL americans, just as much as I don't think just america can be blamed for the current state of things.

Yes it is correct to say that things started to go bad there first but many banks and people in the UK did the exact same thing so if america falls so does the UK all because of the greed of SOME people.

Greed and overconsumption are some reasons Americans get themselves into debt, but there are lots more.

Not thinking ahead as to whether you can support children before getting pregnant is a big one. I know so many people who would be better off if they had waited a few years to get their degrees before starting a family...talking openly about birth control is still embarassing and taboo for a lot of girls in this country. (I love kids but bringing them into the world when you cant afford to take care of them is extremely cruel.)

Also, we arent exactly a perfect model of consumer protection. Our economic system is so pro-free trade and deregulation that its easy for companies to screw people over. Oregon has had a big boom in the last five or so years of Title Loan shops...I see them everywhere...sign away your car title for a few hundred dollars, get laid off, default on your loan, and lose your car worth way more than the loan was worth. Granted, its a stupid idea to sign up for a shady loan but that **** should be illegal.

To the OP: Have you ever been to America? Come visit, youll see theres a lot of variety in attitudes and lifestyles.

Have been to America numerous times and spent 3 months last summer travelling across US. 10-12 cities. In each one, the thing that struck me most was the poverty and the homeless - side by side with obvious wealth. Having travelled extensively in Europe, Asia, Australia and South America, am shocked at the poverty every time I am in US. Former Soviet Bloc European countries that I have visited have a better standard of living.

Also have worked for American multinationals and have always noted that equivalent colleagues have bigger cars, houses and vacations that me. When I talked about paying extra on mortgage or cutting term of my mortgages when we got bonuses, I was ridiculed.

I know I have generalised, but 40-60% of Americans have been living like this versus 5-20% in other We,stern countries.  PS Am not from UK

ps I didn't say you were ;)

yawn...

2/10 at best, but I suppose that I'm feeling generous.

You've got a lot to learn if you want to be a proper forum troll.

Pro tip: It's best if you have at least 50 posts and a few non-troll threads under your sig, before you start your troll, as it affords you credibility. Noobs, like yourself, usually make this mistake, forgetting to lay the groundwork and making their intent transparent.

Had to google trolling to understand your post. Joined cc last Spring after losing 40 lbs - have since lost another 26lbs with a further 4lbs to go to my goal weight. Have found this site useful and supportive especially in the evenings to read comments of people on a similiar journey. Equally the calorie counter and details on BMRs and plateaus etc is very good.

Do not join social networks, where sharing your personal information is the norm. I am a private person. Just felt like adding a comment today. Dont assume everyone has an a motive beyond just adding their observation.  I have no agenda just something that has made me mad. If I was doing this professionally I would have included all the required bogus bios and backgrounds and comments.

Note to newcomers - only post controversial comments after 50 comments on puppies and how I dont like my in-laws /fellow workers.

Gosh, and we are such a bad country that hundreds of thousands try to sneak in, or stay here, illegally, every day/month/year.

3 months of traveling does not give you the basis to say 40-60 percent of all Americans live as you suggest.  Where were you traveling?  Big cities everywhere have problems with poverty -- doesn't matter if you are from Australian, Great Britain, Ireland, France, etc.  Some countries are better at hiding it than others.

Furthermore -- Americans working overseas generally get paid a premium for doing so, it is not surprising they may have larger, bigger, more things than you.  But many Americans also do not talk about their finances, I certainly would never discuss my paycheck, my mortgage, my savings account, my spending with anyone not in my direct line.

I know a great many families, and only 5 of them drive SUVs, the rest are in regular sedans or saving for a hybrid (gasp, did I say "saving"??).  Less than 10%

My point is, changing your statement from Americans (as a whole) to 40-60% of us doesn't change the fact that you are over-generalizing from a fairly small subject group.

While it's true that there are many people living outside their means I'd hardly say it's a majority of Americans. And I'd hardly say 3 months of being in the US is enough to back up your faulty opinion.

Original Post by cb100:

Have been kicked off another thread so will set up a new one.

Just an observation. Why do Americans live so close to the edge. People in threads on job loss on this site have kids in private school and they are not working!! Bad descision after bad decison. Pick a degree you dont like but won't just work in that area to pay the bills. Single parent - decision to have a kid but do not have a stable financial background. Barely finished your education and picky about the areas you are interested in. Seems like the whole of America is like a high school. Barely a sensible decision. Your business really, except unfortunately the infantile behaviour of the American dream will cause a five year world-wide recession.

Stop driving around in your big SUVs - one paycheck away from bankrupcy!!

Hmmmm.......

• I'm an American.
• My wonderful DH and I don't live "close to the egde." (whatever that is)
• We do not have children in private schools.
• We're both pretty happy with our college degrees.
• I'm not a single parent.
• I didn't "barely" finish my education; I JOYFULLY finished it.
• Our bills are paid. In fact, we're debt-free (including our mortgage).
• So what if we choose to drive a 6 year old SUV?  Did it occur to you that some people have enough family members/things to haul around that a larger car is really quite practical?  You do know that some SUVs are more eco-friendly than many other cars, right?

I've traveled around to a lot of other countries, but wouldn't presume to be some sort of expert on their economies or cultures based on vacations.

Original Post by coach_k:

Gosh, and we are such a bad country that hundreds of thousands try to sneak in, or stay here, illegally, every day/month/year.

man, do i hate this argument.  yes, there are worse places to live, and yes, many people from other countries have bought into the same land-of-opportunity line of BS that most americans have.  so what?

obviously cb's argument is a vast generalization and not based on in-depth knowledge, but you can't argue that it doesn't contain an element of truth. 

I agree, pg. I also think it's pathetic that people who were doctors and such in other countries come to the US and work at gas stations and such...  as if their skills are so subpar just because they were educated outside of the States. 

I didnt want to deign to answer this post but I will say just one thing... apparently my ego has gotten the best of me.

I will accept that my single parenthood and ARM and law degree caused the downfall of the American economy.  Obviously, being a teen age mother who went on to graduate from college and from law school and buy my own house, albeit with an ARM that is capped at 2 percent increase OR decrease AND I paid more than 20% down, has damaged the economy beyond belief.  I wont tell my poor little honda that she is being denigrated and compared to SUVs, her 30 miles to the gallon after 8 years might have their feeling's hurt.  I always regretted buying her, I really wanted a pretty fast happy car but I chose to go with something reliable and responsible, at 19 years old, which I am sure, was more damaging to the economy.  I should have spent more money, provided more consumer confidence.  God knows, as I am a single parent, and a teen mom at that, I will never amount to anything.

I am ridiculously offended that you include being a single parent as a reason for the economy's failure.  Most single parents I know are doing everything they can to show their children how to work for what they want and to work for what their children need.  You want to point fingers?  Stated income loans.  Certainly not the government's decision, why dont you go ask Countrywide where they came up with that idea?

Maybe its that we never lived behind the iron curtain.  We believe that if you want it, if you dream it, if you work for it, you can have it.  I pay more than 4 percent of my income for JUST MY health insurance.  That doesnt include copays, deductible, coinsurance, etc.  My daughter's insurance is another 2 percent of my income.  Plus I pay federal, state, and county taxes, plus property taxes.  When you do the figures, we pay almost as much as you socialized countries for far less-- well the way you put your country's stats, its probably close to the same thing.  We subsidize the poor, whether or not we realize it, our taxes pay our county hospitals that many indigent people use as primary care physicians, for social programs that help people get back to work, that assist in creating industry.

You have no knowledge of how hard most American people work.  We have the longest work week with the fewest vacations outside of Japan (I may be off by a country or two but I am very close).  While we are probably one of the most politically apathetic countries, we are very protective of our own.  The argument about people fighting tooth and nail just to be here ISNT a fallacy, its overused and trite, but its true.  Why?  Because HERE, anything can happen.

Even an 18 yr old getting pregnant and ending up a lawyer.

You CANNOT compare the economies of the EU countries or eastern bloc countries with the US.  We are vastly larger and very different.  Heck, you cannot even compare the economy in the middle of the US with the economy on the coasts of the US.

We have our problems.  And they are vast.  And unfortunately for you, our problems are your problems as the entire world's economy is heavily influenced by the US.  I am not sure I agree with the bailout, I am heavily against SUVs, and I believe that people need to be educated on financial matters and stay the hell out of the stock market where they affect people's lives with their ignorance.  But to say that the average American is just a gluttonous ne'er do well?  You havent seen anything by visiting the big cities.  The poverty in the urban areas is evident, just as it is in London, Paris, Vienna, Sydney, Zurich, etc. 

Come live our lives.  Come see what its like to work minimum wage that doesnt even cover the rent you have to pay to be somewhat accessible to work.  Come see that we dont have public transportation that is workable outside of our largest cities.  Come see the distances that we travel just to work or to see our families.  Come live our lives before you decide that the SUV driving single parents have caused the downfall of the world.

Original Post by cb100:

Note to newcomers - only post controversial comments after 50 comments on puppies and how I dont like my in-laws /fellow workers.

I love that quote...so true.  The Lounge is supposed to be talk about anything, but most of the veterans prefer that it be a "talk about NOTHING".

As to your post, I agree and disagree.

I don't agree with bailouts of homeowners or corporations.  I have a smaller house than I could have bought yet I'm supposed to support the millions that decided an interest only loan for 10 times their annual salary with an adjustable rate?  I also don't agree I should support the poor decisions of the companies that made those predatory loans and threw caution to the wind.  They made those loans not caring if people defaulted because then they would own the home...which of course would increase in value...

Where I disagree is that you oversimplify a more complex issue.  The economy is in this state for a multitude of reasons that span both sides of the aisle and into multiple businesses.  Poor business decisions, poor trade policies, poor tax policies, and yes, poor decisions by Americans all played a part.

Specifically where I disagree is that I travel to Europe at least once a year and have been to China recently as well.  Europe (in general) has a lot of problems that restrict "living in excess".  Goods are much more expensive there which means people can afford less...including food and gas.  Houses are smaller due to land availability and the smaller size of most countries.  Taxes are as high as 50% of earnings.  And unemployment in the best of those countries is at least 50% higher than the US on a bad day.  And take it from someone that works in a multinational, I may get paid more in the US...but I also have to pay for healthcare which most countries in developed Europe get for free and undeveloped Europe lack completely.  And don't even start to compare vacation time...the entire continent of Europe goes on vacation, traveling to Greece and Turkish resorts, for about an entire MONTH...whereas I have 3 weeks vacation and rarely have the time to use more than 1-2 weeks of it.  And even if I wasn't busy, I can't afford a vacation.

So, I agree that some Americans made bad decisions in the housing market...but the bulk of this problem affecting the US and thus the global market was for far too many reasons to just peg on American behaviors.

Its not just america, its the WEST, I live in Australia, and see sooo many people up to their eyes in loans and crap they dont need, but you know what, its what the media is portraying as normal...

BTW Im american and I don't do any of those things...

Original Post by cb100:

Why do Americans live so close to the edge.

There is a pretty simple answer to your basic question: optimism. The Americans who feel this believe that all will, over time, be o.k. Our track record as a nation suggests that to them; it's a pretty basic premis of capitalism, really.

Unfortunately, most Americans who believe this have little or no understanding of the "real" history of the U.S. We have benefitted from a vast reserve of natural resources, but the pace of our "development" is unsustainable. The physcial earth simply does not have the resources to allow every American, let alone everyone on earth, to reach a high standard of living measured by the stuff one owns. This is a concept that our nation's leaders simply refuse to accept--yet. People in the parts of the earth that have sustained human population for tens of thousands of years, whose resources have long been all but depleted, they "get it." They appreciate the limits nature has imposed and organize their lives accordingly. The US, without humans for most of the past, has had a tremendous advantage in terms of fertile land, trees, water, etc. Science has improved the ability to sustain those resources longer than before, but so far, there is absolutely no reason to think we can sustain at every increasing rates of use forever.

Secondly, the % of Americans who drive big cars and live in houses they cannot really afford have no idea what life is really like for the rest of us. I'm not sure if they are 20% or 40% of the population, but they are a sizable minority. And they imagine our incomes are lower than they are because to them, the concept of "living within our means" is meaningless. Our small houses and cars are, to them, symbols of failure. To live in a society like this requires a tremendouse amount of self-restraint, because to measure "success" by the size of one's house or car is a huge pressure. Even though my husband and I don't buy into this, my husband is quite aware that he does not "measure up" to many of the people we meet in the course of our work and daily lives.  

But the sad reality is, even living within our means and saving regularly, cannot insulate the rest of us from the poor decision making of those driven by greed or optimism (and I'm not always sure which it is, but I like to think that a lot of people are just naively optimistic and not evil and greedy). When health care and gas go up, we have to adjust, and it is painful. I figured out recently that between just these two changes (health care and gas), my husband and I need to reduce our standard of living by over $8000/year. That is a LOT of money--and guess what, we can do it. We are doing it. We cannot do anything about the 25-40% drop in the value of our college- and retirement savings, however. Not right now, anyway. I don't mind working for years longer than I expected--I love my job. But what if my family suffers a health crisis? Well, that is the #1 reason for bankruptcy in America, in case you didn't know. Without "planning" for a medical crisis and saving anywhere from $200K to $1 million BEFORE worrying about retirement and college funds, there is no way to prepare for that. I guess we were unreasonable "optimistic" by assuming we'd remain in good health by eating right and exercising and not indulging in really unhealthy habits . . . silly me!