For people who want a killer butt (This is Perfection)

People disagreed/didn't like wich is fine...so...you wanna see the workouts go to my journal.

 

thanks,

Potter

"Good for you.  We can agree to disagree.  I'd never live my life, getting fit, so brainwashed by these scientific studies that keep getting quoted around here."

-Brainwashed by scientific studies? really? drawing a conclusion based on the best available evidence is being brainwashed?

"Know your own body, and you don't have to worry about what happened with 20 bodies in Sweden a couple of years ago."

-Since you probably can't try every single training method youself it's a good idea to look at what provides the best results in others.  Also, if I may ask a question, when you're sick/sore/etc and you go to the doctor, do you follow the advice he gives you?  Because you realize that he/she is basing that advice on information he/she gained from reading studies done on X people in Y country Z years ago, right?  So do you take your doctors advice or decide that since you "know your own body" that it would be better to self treat/medicate?

"If I'd have listend to what science told me, I'd have never been a successful athlete,"

-Why not? what did science tell you to do that didn't work?

"so forgive me if I take all this with a grain of salt, and welcome the interjection of more "out of the box" approaches to getting fit.  They far better fit the model of each person is unique, and you can't cookie cutter the way people should achieve their goals"

-I think your overestimating how unique people really are.  Everyone's DNA is something like 99.999% identical.  People with different goals should absolutily use different training methods.  But in general, the most efficient way for one person to build muscle is also the most efficient way for the next person to build muscle.

Original Post by floggingsully:

-Brainwashed by scientific studies? really? drawing a conclusion based on the best available evidence is being brainwashed?

Drawing a conclusion based on something you've read, rather than something you've tried, isn't the best evidence, IMO. 

 

-Since you probably can't try every single training method youself it's a good idea to look at what provides the best results in others. 

I agree.  I also see lots of folks, who've done what is proposed, and not achieved the goals they want. 

 Also, if I may ask a question, when you're sick/sore/etc and you go to the doctor, do you follow the advice he gives you?  Because you realize that he/she is basing that advice on information he/she gained from reading studies done on X people in Y country Z years ago, right?  So do you take your doctors advice or decide that since you "know your own body" that it would be better to self treat/medicate?

 I follow the advice my doctor gives me, because he's basing his information, by in large, on his own personal experiences, with his cases, particularly if he's been in practice for a long period of time.  My doctor has been practicing for 30 years, and I'd be willing to wager, he treats me based more on the last 100 people he saw in his office, that has similar symptoms, than any study he read in medical school.  Oh, and let's not forget the fact, doctors are in many cases, still wrong, based on their information they have.

 

-Why not? what did science tell you to do that didn't work?

Traditional training methods, particularly weight training never worked for me.  The rep schemes my strenght coaches keep ramming down my throat, never worked.  It wasn't until I took it upon myself, to do what I knew worked for me, that I was able to be successful. 

 

-I think your overestimating how unique people really are.  Everyone's DNA is something like 99.999% identical.  People with different goals should absolutily use different training methods.  But in general, the most efficient way for one person to build muscle is also the most efficient way for the next person to build muscle.

I don't think I am overestimating anything.  This isn't about DNA, at least not for me.  Similar goals, does not automatically mean similar techniques.   If you are trying to convince me of that, you can stop right now, because it just isn't the case, for many many people. 

 I wish more people would post on this board, what worked for them, especially if it was by unconventional methods, and folks could just leave it at that, and not feel like they have to try and punch holes in it.  Beacuse if them putting up what worked for them, and one person reads that, and tries it, and has results, it has value.

 

curtinks your posts work better with a sarcastic smiley at the end

Out of curiosity - what did work for you? Training advice for an endo-, ecto- and mesomorph is extremely different at the higher levels of achievement - the beginner workouts are roughly the same because they're designed to bring you up to a certain base level of conditioning, but at the very top of performance training you need to design workouts on an individual basis.

 So I don't see the dichotomy you're trying to set up - the advice for beginners is to pick one standard program that takes you from where you are to a specific goal (Starting strength, couch to 5K, learn to run, hiking for beginners, newbie cycling) - while the advice for a competitive athlete is to not train like a beginner but to train according to what you learned about your body while following one of the standard programs.

 It is however completely inapproriate to advise a beginner to follow an "advanced" program - athletes at the top of their field did not get there by starting out focusing on the fiddly details that an advanced trainee needs to focus on, they got there by mastering the fundamentals first and leaving the detail work for later, when it makes an appreciable difference.

Original Post by spirochete:

curtinks your posts work better with a sarcastic smiley at the end

 I'll keep that in mind...lol.

Original Post by melkor:

Out of curiosity - what did work for you? Training advice for an endo-, ecto- and mesomorph is extremely different at the higher levels of achievement - the beginner workouts are roughly the same because they're designed to bring you up to a certain base level of conditioning, but at the very top of performance training you need to design workouts on an individual basis.

I never saw strength or mass gains, from the typical 8-12 rep scheme, as is so heavily touted.  My strength coaches in high school, as well as college all fell into the thinking that the greatest combination of strength as well as size gains, we achieved when you worked to failure, within that range.  For me, my greatest strenth and size gains, were within the 2-6 rep range.  Strength, that's no surpise, for for muscle growth, using such low reps, is normally considered outside of what science has shown.  Well outside, if memory serves me.  For me personally, I was able to gain muscle mass the fastest, if beyond any warmup sets, I never went beyond 4 or 5 reps.  Not sure if that will still apply to me ten years after the fact, but once I start weight training again, I'll know, pretty quickly.  I'm not sure where you cut off a beginner workout, as opposed to an advanced one, or where it falls in this discussion.  For this topic, I am more in line with the thougt of conventional as opposed to unconventional.  Sprints never made me faster on the field, but plyometrics did.  

When I did competitive powelifting, I never followed the traditional routine schedules.  Elimintaing secondary exercises always hurt my one rep maxes on my core lifts.  When I did bodybuilding, my contest prep, particularly dietwise, would have had me banned from here, for promoting unhealthy practices, but it always worked for me.  Same with my diet now.  I get criticized now, for my diet, because some **** online calculator says something else, by people who are clueless as to how my body reacts to food.  The list goes on and one.  Suffice it to say, had I followed the commonly accepted practices, I'd have never been who I was.  The list goes on and one.  And this doesn't even include everyone I trained, who had much greater success going outside conventional wisdom, both as a beginner, and as they progressed. 

 So I don't see the dichotomy you're trying to set up - the advice for beginners is to pick one standard program that takes you from where you are to a specific goal (Starting strength, couch to 5K, learn to run, hiking for beginners, newbie cycling) - while the advice for a competitive athlete is to not train like a beginner but to train according to what you learned about your body while following one of the standard programs.

I'm not trying to set up a dichotomy.  I think you underestimate how quickly a beginner can understand what works for them.  How many people who have battled their weight, are truly beginners anyway?   Most have done trial and error for years, usually following best practices promoted somewhere.  IMO, many people trying to get fit, spend too much time, assuming they are beginners.  Am I promoting that people go overboard, and get hurt?  of course not, but there's a point in between, that can be had, as well.

 It is however completely inapproriate to advise a beginner to follow an "advanced" program - athletes at the top of their field did not get there by starting out focusing on the fiddly details that an advanced trainee needs to focus on, they got there by mastering the fundamentals first and leaving the detail work for later, when it makes an appreciable difference.

As I said, I am not talking about advanced as opposed to beginner training methods, and IMO, I don't consider what was posted here originally as promoting an advanced method to beginners.  If beginners read it, and want to try it, so be it.  Perhaps a disclaimer would be appropriate for a post like this, but let's not assume everyone who reads this, is a beginner, by any definition.

 

oh boy...I'm never starting a thread again....

everyone has good points...if we mixed all our inputs then we would have one kick ass routine that we could sell on DVD and be millionaires...lol

And I'm not even joking...this is how it starts...

 

 

I'm gunna take a picture of my ass and post it...hahahahah....

I dare you.

Wrong person to dare...lol...I will I'll post it tonight or tomorrow...you wanna see results...I'll post MY ASS!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA

Sounds like you're the perfect person to dare!

 Nah, typical mass gains when following one of the classic workouts like Rippetoe/Kilgore/Pendlay's "Starting strength" is in the 20-30lbs of muscle in the first year of training, and that's focused on doing mostly compound basic lifts using a 3x5 set/rep scheme. Where it doesn't use a 5x1 or 5x3 scheme.

 Or Bill Starr's 5x5 from "The strongest shall survive" - or Reg Park's version from 1960 that Arnold used for his training.

 The 3x8-12 bodybuilder range isn't the holy grail of set/rep schemes - it's a compromise that works well for general physique goals but it's not the only or even the best route to anything in particular that isn't bodybuilding.

 So that you saw the best strength/mass gains in the 2-6 rep range isn't very unconventional at all :)

 Where "advanced" and beginner programs differ is mostly in the frequency and intensity of the workouts - a beginner can make more rapid progress using a linear load progression and frequent workouts like in Starting Strength, because the beginner is getting stronger from increasing neural efficiency and learning to use their muscles properly. Linear progression only works for so long before you're not a beginner anymore - an intermediate or advanced lifter is capable of using loads heavy enough that it takes far longer than a couple days to recover properly. At which point using Bill Starr's 5x5 workout starts making sense - you can't increase the load every workout anymore, but you can still get stronger using a proper workout plan and increase loads on a weekly basis.

 Which means that if you as a beginner pick up an "advanced" workout plan and increase loads on a weekly instead of a workout-to-workout basis all you're accomplishing is slowing down your rate of progression.

 'course, this all just applies to lifting heavy things - but I would think that it would be more or less the same for any sort of sport. Beginners make more rapid progress than the advanced trainee because they have so far to go before reaching the limits of their genetic potential. So the way to tell if you're an advanced trainee is if you can't keep up with the frequency and progression of a beginner workout plan anymore.

hahaha....whatever

I feel like fighting now...what's up spirochete wanna give it a go?

I beat people up for fun....

 

lol...actually I tore my quad coming down the steps...I hate falling.

Original Post by curtinks:

Arguing the efficacy of a butt workout....Classic.....lmao!

this is why this fitness forum is annoying for me. it appears that everyone who posts something thats not WRONG, but not to the SPECIFIC LIKING of a "regular" ...you get a thread like this. you've got a great person -- posting great ideas -- with thought behind them -- clearly in great physical shape and proud to SHOW IT with his pictures...(aka, someone who is capable of getting results)

and then as it always seems to happen and go in this forum -- someone feels obligated to "nitpick with negativity" and then the whole thread becomes a running testosterone party for people to be all pithy in. myself included. a bit of circle jerking too.

*one of the reasons I have not been posting in here much anymore*

not that my posting matters either way. :) nothing like a good old LMAO to make me want to go work my butt out!

 "I wish more people would post on this board, what worked for them, especially if it was by unconventional methods, and folks could just leave it at that, and not feel like they have to try and punch holes in it.  Beacuse if them putting up what worked for them, and one person reads that, and tries it, and has results, it has value."

Weight lifting for weight lose is, in my opinion, and unconventional method.  It seems to have worked for some.  More conventional methods have worked for some as well.

Who said the originally posted workout was wrong?  I didn't, I said it wasn't as good as it could be, and I think I did a good job of backing up my statements.  People disagreeing about the best way to reach our goals is how information is shared and how we learn.

If people don't nit pick routines and ideas posted, how are the people who read these forums supposed to figure out if the ideas posted are right for them?

Original Post by trhawley:

"I wish more people would post on this board, what worked for them, especially if it was by unconventional methods, and folks could just leave it at that, and not feel like they have to try and punch holes in it. Beacuse if them putting up what worked for them, and one person reads that, and tries it, and has results, it has value."

...best paragraph posted so far in this thread.

^^  Quote from curtinks.

Original Post by trhawley:


Weight lifting for weight lose is, in my opinion, and unconventional method.  

It shouldn't be since it's been proven to work better.

Original Post by floggingsully:

If people don't nit pick routines and ideas posted, how are the people who read these forums supposed to figure out if the ideas posted are right for them?

 

By trying them.  Doh!  Nitpicking them serves no one but the ego of the person who's nitpicking.  I need a Homer Simpson smiley...lmao.

 

Original Post by floggingsully:

Who said the originally posted workout was wrong? I didn't, I said it wasn't as good as it could be, and I think I did a good job of backing up my statements. People disagreeing about the best way to reach our goals is how information is shared and how we learn.

If people don't nit pick routines and ideas posted, how are the people who read these forums supposed to figure out if the ideas posted are right for them?

good to see you responding by feeling/thinking i was talking about you....so yes, you nitpicked it with negativity "to make it appear wrong" - so much so that the original poster removed his original post. you were not alone, as its always a collective effort in the fitness forum. i would elaborate but i think enough people have spoken out so far to support that general idea.

if that was not your intent....maybe next time, post with a positive spin. i know i for one would have appreciated seeing that.

so....your posts came off as negative and disagreeable in this thread. you typically have good advice, even with very black and white comments at times, and you are usually the first to swoop in to "correct" wrong fitness ideas (i read most of the threads here).....which is OFTEN appreciated, but this time...it was nitpicking "with a negative spin". i didn't appreciate it. i chose to say something.