Pointless deaths... forgetting 9/11

Why are people so eager to forget 9/11? Are the events that resulted from that day just too horrible to be worth remembering?

It is kind of sad, for those that died I mean. But I wonder why no one cares about them? About their memory or how their lives and deaths were used?

No, I guess people just don't care to honor the dead or respect their memories.

Why aren't people angry for those that died? Why aren't people angry that their deaths were twisted and used to go to a random war? You realize, we didn't go to war with those that actually attacked us...right?

No, after the event, the leadership in the country used the tragedy of their deaths to support their own agendas. But, I guess no one cares how their loved ones were exploited.... I guess that part isn't important?

Why is today about forgetting any lessons we might be able to learn? Why is today about forgetting how to prevent this from happening again? Why is it inappropriate to try and make the deaths of those lost actually mean something positive to the future...instead of just leaving them as political tools for the war we are in.

It is so very sad for those lost. No one speaks up for them. No one speaks up for how they were exploited. If your death was also exploited in such a way, wouldn't you want someone to speak up for you? I know I would! I would hope someone would give a voice to my death and tell people I did not die just to be used... that my life was worth more than just fuel for a PROVEN unjustified political engine.

Oh, but I guess today isn't about them... I guess today isn't about those that died. Today is about us, about how we feel. Giving meaning to the deaths of those lost can wait for another day....

Okay I am just going to urge others to not respond to this because you are going to pull your hair out if you get into it with this guy.

Kate, you guys were freaking out about Lorik being in your thread and told him to go make his own. He's doing what you told him to do, so STFU.

Lorik, I don't think people are trying to disrespect the dead or ignore the reasoning behind their deaths. People handle death in their own way, and they might have different opinions about what should be done about it.

I definitely agree that the people in power exploited their deaths to get us to go to war, but not everyone is fully informed, most people probably don't know that we aren't even fighting the "terrorists" they think we are.

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

 

Lorik, I don't think people are trying to disrespect the dead or ignore the reasoning behind their deaths.

 I think they are. When I tried to speak of the lessons behind 9/11, it was largely met with "we don't want to hear it". People just don't want to think about the meaning behind those deaths and the lessons we NEED to take away. They don't want to think about how their deaths are being used ... how the memories of these people are being perverted by having the last effect on this world being nothing more than a tool to whip the country into a mindless mob.

If you died, and your death drove your community into a frenzy and they went out and lynched a random black man... wouldn't you feel that was disrespecting you and your death and your memory? Wouldn't you want someone to speak up for you and on the day of your death someone would speak up and say "no, I did not want to be used to fuel their unrelated hate...to be used in such an ugly way".

I have a hard time believing anyone that died in 9/11 would be "ok" with going to war with a people that did not attack them. I have a hard time believe anyone that died in 9/11 would be "ok" with going to war with no real reason and false evidence. No, they would not just be "ok" with playing a key part in creating a mob mentality in the country to allow these things to happen.

Forgetting these things is disrespecting those that died.

Your opinion is duly noted.  I respectfully disagree.  There is nothing wrong with people feeling personal grief, loss, and anger over the events of 9/11, without simultaneously making a political statement about it.

Personally, I did not care for the Iraq war at the time, and I care for it less now that we know more about the circumstances leading up to it.  But, politics is for another day.

I totally agree about their death being exploited and used for all the wrong reasons, and no I would not want my death to run out and lynch anyone (unless it was the ACTUAL person that killed me).

I know you see people's actions as disrespectful, and in ways it is, but a lot of people are very... sensitive. It's probably one of the reasons they turned into a midless mob, they were blinded by their pain and grief, all they wanted was justice for their loved ones death, and they beleived our government was giving them that.

I do hope more people would learn more about who attacked us, who we went to war with, who we are AT war with, how the government handled the situation... maybe they would feel differently. But sadly, a lot of people don't care, or they already think they know the truth.

It's good that you're trying to get people to think more about the events around 9/11 but I think you could get more responses and more people thinking about it if you didn't upset them and drive them away by accusing them  of disrespecting the memories of their loved ones. These people are just trying to handle the situation in the ways they know how.

Original Post by lysistrata:

 There is nothing wrong with people feeling personal grief, loss, and anger over the events of 9/11, without simultaneously making a political statement about it.

 

 I think there is room for both. For some, it will be more about personal loss, that is fine. But 9/11 affected more than simply that group, it rippled across the world.

For the rest of us, it means a lot more than just losing someone... and that is the point of days to remember, it is a day to remember (not just one thing or another, but also the entire sittuation and effects of the event).

You see, people are a funny thing. We forget about things very easily. Next week, we wont even think about 9/11 or anything having to do with it. We will be back to our happy lives. Days like this are a chance to shift the focus from every day life to an important issue and/or lesson....that is why we have holidays and other days set aside to remember events.

Just consider any major loss happening in the last 20 years. How many do you think about? Unless there is a special day assigned to it, it just turns into another day of the year. Bad things have been happening for a very long time, and there are a LOT of lessons to be learnt....if society starts forgetting the lessons, we just keep making the mistakes over and over again.

I have no doubt we will run into something similar to 9/11, because it seems people have already forgotten the lesson from it (or never really learnt the lesson in the first place). No doubt something bad will happen and the political leaders will use it to their advantage to manipulate the population into a mob to get one of their agendas done. People will fall for it too, because they won't remember the lesson from 9/11...the lesson of acting thoughtfully and not just through emotion.

So, I guess it is kind of pointless for me to try and stop the memories of those lost from being trivialized.... because... well... it has already happened. They get to remain just tools for war in the books of history... instead of what they really were, VICTIMS in both life and death, being exploited and used by those with the ability to do so.

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

Kate, you guys were freaking out about Lorik being in your thread and told him to go make his own. He's doing what you told him to do, so STFU.

 

I would agree with you hayley if this was just about any other subject, but 9/11 is a day filled with such emotion and wounds that are still raw.  To make such callous statements on this of all days would be like rubbing salt in an open wound, which is probably the intention all along because that will attract more attention.

Original Post by caverlady:

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

Kate, you guys were freaking out about Lorik being in your thread and told him to go make his own. He's doing what you told him to do, so STFU.

 

I would agree with you hayley if this was just about any other subject, but 9/11 is a day filled with such emotion and wounds that are still raw.  To make such callous statements on this of all days would be like rubbing salt in an open wound, which is probably the intention all along because that will attract more attention.

 How is it when mothers who lose a son to drunk driving, they turn to battling drunk driving?

When a person dies of a hate crime, the family turns and battles against hate crime?

But when people die at 9/11...everyone just wants to forget/ not deal with the issues surrounding those deaths?

I'm sorry that the task of thinking of 2 things at once is too much work for you...  but I think that has something to do with magic surrounding 9/11.

I hear stories of people whos lives are "so amazingly changed" by 9/11...when they never knew anyone remotely involved. That it was the "most lifechanging event ever" because they were in class and heard about it on the news.... it can't possibly be the deaths, because, well, way more than that dying all around the world on a regular basis.

Just seems a bit phony to me. You know, like those who have huge breakdowns when a show in cancelled on TV?

Hmm, I don't think the mindless mob mentality surrounding 9/11 was a short lived thing... I think it is very much strong still...

People hiding in their houses? o.O People "living in fear"? Ahhhh BS. Irrational crazy crazy people in our country...

What do you think the lessons are Lorik?

Original Post by loriklorik:

 How is it when mothers who lose a son to drunk driving, they turn to battling drunk driving?

When a person dies of a hate crime, the family turns and battles against hate crime?

But when people die at 9/11...everyone just wants to forget/ not deal with the issues surrounding those deaths?

This makes sense.  I didn't know anyone that died.  I don't know anyone that did.  People die everyday.  That particular day there were more than usual.  I guess I could say, "I'm sorry for your loss."  I don't.  I don't say anything because I don't want to defend my right not to care.

Waking up today was the same as waking up any other day.

Original Post by caverlady:

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

Kate, you guys were freaking out about Lorik being in your thread and told him to go make his own. He's doing what you told him to do, so STFU.

 

I would agree with you hayley if this was just about any other subject, but 9/11 is a day filled with such emotion and wounds that are still raw.  To make such callous statements on this of all days would be like rubbing salt in an open wound, which is probably the intention all along because that will attract more attention.

 It's been 8 years. It's not like it happened last week. As many people say on here, if you think you'll be upset or offended by a post, don't read it. No one is required to read this thread. I don't think most of what Lorik is saying is offensive or callous, and I agree that people need to think more about what really happend before and after 9/11 and I hope Lorik can find a way to provoke thought/spread his message/whatever in a gentler way without upsetting people.

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

 I don't think most of what Lorik is saying is offensive or callous, and I agree that people need to think more about what really happend before and after 9/11 and I hope Lorik can find a way to provoke thought/spread his message/whatever in a gentler way without upsetting people.

I agree. ^

Original Post by jewelsmcblah:

What do you think the lessons are Lorik?

 I think one of the main lessons is to keep our emotions in check when dealing with political action (and, we could carry that over into a life lesson for everyday...but politcally it is very important to keep big things like this from happening again).

We needed to calm down as a country and really look at the sittuation. Not just react towards SOMEONE.

There were some people saying it was stupid to go to war and we needed to calm down, but those people were painted as traitors and anti-america. Lessons on mob mentality can be learnt here.... how patriotism can simply blind us to what is really right to do.

There are a lot of other things to be taken away too. Such as perspective (a couple thousand people died... that is far less than a lot of other things happening), or irrational fear (people in kansas were saying how afraid they were.... uhh, it was a hijacking, not a nuke or any sort of "real" attack...kansas isn't going to get swamped by troops and your little town probably isn't high on the hit list...).

Basically, people need to consider what happened... and why. Think about how to stop it from happening again (such as now locking the cabins in airplanes is a good thing, the security is just an extension of the irrational fear and political popularity).

Our leaders also failed us greatly by letting the population go wild (they even supported it). We should think about our government as a whole... have better checks in place to keep sudden mob mentality from being able to control our actions (this is a general political issue that I actually have all the time, it just becomes painfully obvious when we run off to war from a public outcry).

Then we start to move into the government in general...things such as accountability...

Basically, there is a lot to think about and learn from 9/11.... the question is if we are actually going to change anything? Or just continue on and go "whoops" while trying to sweep the event under the rug (Which seems to be the popular opinion).

Original Post by caverlady:

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

Kate, you guys were freaking out about Lorik being in your thread and told him to go make his own. He's doing what you told him to do, so STFU.

 

I would agree with you hayley if this was just about any other subject, but 9/11 is a day filled with such emotion and wounds that are still raw.  To make such callous statements on this of all days would be like rubbing salt in an open wound, which is probably the intention all along because that will attract more attention.

I don't see anything callous about the things lorik said.  I ask you to highlight the callous parts because I don't see them.  He isn't belittling anyone's loss or their pain.  All he is saying is that there are things beyond that that are also important.  There are many lessons to be learned from 9/11.

Also, as Lorik is the originator of this thread, you probably knew that you were going to disagree with what he said.  If you don't want to read what he writes, then don't. 

Lorik, I agree 100% with your post. I don't see anything callous or disrespectful. If anything, I see you giving more respect to those that died than the throngs of people who show up in red, white and blue, wave flags, and threaten more retribution.

I really despise some of the country music songs that have come out about 9/11, asking if you remember how you felt when the towers were falling. What total propaganda that is. Get a bunch of drunk rednecks riled up and wanting revenge on a country and a people who had nothing to do with 9/11.

Here, here, moonikins!  Yea, I gotta agree with ya on that.  

Lorik, Americans have become stupid.  If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend you see Team America World Police.  You will love it, if you don't mind marionettes having sex.  

Terrorists have always existed.  Most of what we see in corporate media is propaganda used to perpetuate a senseless war Bush Jr agreed to do (note I did not blame him for it since he's too stupid a guy to pull this off) because he hasn't worked-out his father-issues.  He went into a war his father flatly refused to go into because he knew there was no way to end it.  He wanted to do what his daddy couldn't and he screwed the pooch, to be certain.

But some people got much wealthier after it all.  AT&T got new hardware & software to spy on American citizens out of the grant offered to "monitor terrorist activity in the US."  Matter of fact, that very hardware/software is what they want to use to censor internet content if they can pull-off the abolition of net-neutrality.  Its all profit to them.  And Big Brother gets all the data.  

The cold-war is over.  The last of the industrial military complex good-ol-boy system needed something to keep 'em going.  Our lovely little war was just the thing.  

I am not mourning the loss of the ones who died, but those who survived the ones who died for this no-good war.  Our gov't knew about the possibility of a bombing but needed it to justify their war-campaign.  They were banking on the Idiocracy (another movie you might enjoy, Lorik), of Americans and profited handsomely.  I'm not saying it was a conspiracy.  I'm saying it saved the govt money to wait and not do anything, and then they happened to profit from that decision later.  

I am afraid of a lot of Americans.  I am afraid of decisive ignorance.  Its not that so many ppl trust our govt as they are just too lazy and self-absorbed to investigate and do a little independent thinking.  I also think some are truly terrified of the truth.  The real terror is what's happened to our country.  

Its a sad day.  So much loss for so little gain.  

You know, it's interesting you're taking up the cause of preserving and defending the memories of the 3,000 people that died on 9/11, when two years ago you were questioning why people were so intent on focusing on just that particular group of victims in the first place and pointing out that there are a lot worse things happening in the world.  

And, like this present thread, you insinuate that because you're not constantly hearing about it, that people all over this country aren't outraged by the travesty that was waged in their name.  There have been many many threads, many discussions, with people voicing their disagreement with the Iraq war, and all over the country there have been protests, and people calling and writing their representatives.  The American people voted a man into office on the principle of changing that and many other things in this country

Yet, according to you, people aren't paying attention, and aren't doing anything.

One thread about personalized mourning doesn't mean people want to forget, and your self righteous indignation doesn't exactly raise the level of discussion.

on edit:  And if you think "nobody cares" or nobody's doing anything, all you have to do is, well, a little research - here's a start:  IVAW

Original Post by santonacci:

You know, it's interesting you're taking up the cause of preserving and defending the memories of the 3,000 people that died on 9/11, when two years ago you were questioning why people were so intent on focusing on just that particular group of victims in the first place and pointing out that there are a lot worse things happening in the world.  

And, like this present thread, you insinuate that because you're not constantly hearing about it, that people all over this country aren't outraged by the travesty that was waged in their name.  There have been many many threads, many discussions, with people voicing their disagreement with the Iraq war, and all over the country there have been protests, and people calling and writing their representatives.  The American people voted a man into office on the principle of changing that and many other things in this country

Yet, according to you, people aren't paying attention, and aren't doing anything.

One thread about personalized mourning doesn't mean people want to forget, and your self righteous indignation doesn't exactly raise the level of discussion.

 Yup, that thread is my other issue I have when people get upset about deaths from something sudden like a flood or airplane crash... everyone gets so emotional and heated, yet they are so cool towards issues where hundreds (if not thousands) times more people are dieing. I was just talking about that the other month when people were dieing in Iran... everyone was so upset, yet right now I would bet they don't think of that (or any) problem going on. Mmm I guess you could say it is an issue of priority?

The point I am making now (instead of arguing that our attention could be spent somewhere else, because, well it is fine to remember things) is that as we remember those that were lost...let us also remember what they died for and what happened because of their deaths...how their deaths were used and how to stop that from happening again.

We aren't trying to throw tons of money or support in their direction right now (so no real issue of "where would it do more good"), we are just remembering a horrible event (so let us really remember all of it, not just bits and pieces).

Original Post by santonacci:

You know, it's interesting you're taking up the cause of preserving and defending the memories of the 3,000 people that died on 9/11, when two years ago you were questioning why people were so intent on focusing on just that particular group of victims in the first place and pointing out that there are a lot worse things happening in the world.  

And, like this present thread, you insinuate that because you're not constantly hearing about it, that people all over this country aren't outraged by the travesty that was waged in their name.  There have been many many threads, many discussions, with people voicing their disagreement with the Iraq war, and all over the country there have been protests, and people calling and writing their representatives.  The American people voted a man into office on the principle of changing that and many other things in this country

Yet, according to you, people aren't paying attention, and aren't doing anything.

One thread about personalized mourning doesn't mean people want to forget, and your self righteous indignation doesn't exactly raise the level of discussion.

on edit:  And if you think "nobody cares" or nobody's doing anything, all you have to do is, well, a little research - here's a start:  IVAW

 I will repost this post over and over.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!