To pray or not to pray...

A little backstory.

My father is Jewish, and my mother is Catholic. I was raised Catholic but now consider myself to be agnostic- I don't believe or not believe in God, I just don't know one way or the other. I REALLY don't do well with organized religion. It's fine for others, just not for me.

When I was an adolescent, my dad had a midlife crisis and became very devoutly Jewish. He left my mom around this time. He is now somewhere between conservative and Orthodox- he follows most of the rules except when they're inconvenient for him (but not when they're inconvenient for others), which I find to be ridiculous. The fact that my parents are no longer together doesn't bother me, and never did. I just don't like that now I have to go out of my way to demonstrate to him that I love him, or else he gives me grief.

I will be in town from out of state for the holidays. I decided to cook him a special dinner as my holiday gift for him, since I can't afford much else that he doesn't have already. I will be doing this on December 26th, which is during Hanukkah. My problem is: whenever I go over to his house for dinner, he makes me pray over wine with him. I imagine this will be especially pressed this time, considering it's during a holiday. I tell him that I don't want to, that it feels wrong to me, but he says things like "I don't ask you to do much," and "Just do this one thing for me." I usually give in rather than make it an issue. But it really fundamentally bothers me, and I can't completely articulate why.

So what should I do? I'm considering telling him that I'm trying not to drink (which is true), and turn down the wine. Or should I be a good daughter and pray to his God?

Well, my view is that you knew what you were getting into when you offered to make him a holiday dinner.  You know it will create conflict if you refuse to pray.  So you have to decide whether it's more important to avoid conflict during Hanukkah or stand on your principles about praying.

If I were in your shoes, I'd just pray.  It doesn't hurt anybody and it will make your dad happy, and isn't that what the holidays are all about?

Original Post by lysistrata:

Well, my view is that you knew what you were getting into when you offered to make him a holiday dinner.

Believe it or not, it didn't even occur to me until a few days ago. I would have ended up having dinner at his house during Hanukkah regardless of whether I cooked for him, since I live out of state and only come into town for the holidays.

meh - he's your dad.  close your eyes and meditate, think about your shopping list, plan your evening's television-watching schedule, do what you have to do. 

or is it one of those out-loud prayer deals?  i hate those. 

i dunno.  turn it into whatever you have to.  it's just a minute or two, right?

i have to say, i'm really glad that my parents have followed my lead and declared themselves atheists.

Can I ask a somewhat stupid question - is this prayer something that is said out loud?  If not, can't you simply 'pretend' to pray?  Maybe that'd be wrong but I think if I was in your position I'd simply go through the motions to make my father happy but in my head I'd be doing something else - like thinking about my to-do list. 

Original Post by pgeorgian:

meh - he's your dad.  close your eyes and meditate, think about your shopping list, plan your evening's television-watching schedule, do what you have to do. 

or is it one of those out-loud prayer deals?  i hate those. 

Basically, I have to sit while he prays, and then drink the wine and say "Amen." Which is why I'm thinking that if I use the wine as an excuse, it will get me out of it.

Or maybe I'm just being a stubborn brat about this. I'm really not even sure why it bothers me as much as it does. Maybe because my dad doesn't really support my life choices, but wants me to participate in supporting his. It feels like an "I'm right, you're wrong" thing.

This is the "kiddush" ritual to say a blessing over wine before a holiday meal, yes?

If you don't want to drink wine for this ritual, then grape juice is religiously just fine. Tell your dad you prefer grape juice.

If this is kiddush, it is a short blessing, probably preceded by a song. it takes minutes. It's not like he's asking you to come to synagogue for 3 hours.

You should participate in kiddush out of respect for your dad.

I understand that you may be uncomfortable about participating in a ritual that you don't really believe in. But regardless of the details of ritual, respecting your dad and making him happy about this is a higher ethical value.

He will have a whole lifetime to get used to the fact that you have your own religious beliefs and make your own religious decisions with your life. 

You may be worried about a slippery slope. What if next he gets in your face bout wanting you to observe more rituals, keep kosher,  stop wearing pants, or other signs of observance. That's where you need to put your foot down.

Simply listening to a 3 minute song and blessing, and taking a sip of grapejuice? Just do it.

Great advice, Alevin. I like your point about the higher ethical value. Although I'm not sure that it's so much the participating in the ritual that I don't believe in, I think it's more that it's symbolic of other problems I have with him.

He DID make a comment the other day to me about how one of his neighbor's daughters, who left the Jewish community, wears long skirts when she visits her family "out of respect." The slippery slope thing hadn't occurred to me until you said that, though.

It's his house, so when in Rome, do as the Romans.  When I go to other people's houses, I respect their customs although they most likely differ from mine.  I think that's one key obligation of a good guest.

hey emily - think systems theory.  you shift a little, he shifts a little in response, everything gets a little better ;)

i'm amazed at how much more flexible my dad has become as i've stopped arguing with him (and started laughing at him).  the more i act like an adult, the more he treats me like one.  he actually said to me about a year ago, "You know more about it than I do."  never saw that coming!! 

i wish it hadn't taken me so damn long to figure that out!

My husband is an atheist.  It was agreed upon before we ever got married that he would go to church with me twice a year - Christmas and Easter.  Does he find it silly, yes, does he get anything out of it, no.  But, it means a lot to me to go to these two services as a family, so he goes, sits, listens, and makes me happy.  You don't have to beleive it - your dad already knows this - just go through the actions for him. 

Original Post by pgeorgian:

hey emily - think systems theory.  you shift a little, he shifts a little in response, everything gets a little better ;)

Hahaha!

I just wanted to say that I appreciate how kind and reasoned everyone has been. You all could have easily called me spoiled (or worse). I think I will end up not putting up a fight about it, and just doing it out of respect and love.

Emily,  Believe me, nothing chaps my ass more than hippocrisy.. So, I feel the same way as you on this matter. But, I agree with pgeorgian, in this case since it's your father and you don't see him that often and it will be over and done with in a short few minutes, maybe just fake it.

I was in that situation with my x-boyfriends' family for over 4 years. The were fundamentalist baptists and I am an agnostic. We had to hold hands and pray before eating EVERY meal!  I played along, but was really grinding my teeth the whole time. It ended up being a big part of why we broke up...I just couldn't fake it anymore! And, I think they were onto me...

Hey at least the Jews drink wine! My x-bf's family once refused to eat some shrimp scampi that I cooked because it had wine in the sauce! I think that was the last straw for me...

Shalom!

Original Post by gddrdld:

Hey at least the Jews drink wine! My x-bf's family once refused to eat some shrimp scampi that I cooked because it had wine in the sauce! I think that was the last straw for me...

What?!?! But they'd eat the shrimp? Doesn't it say in Deuteronomy that you shouldn't eat shellfish? A few chapters before it allegedly outlaws homosexuality?

Now THAT'S hypocricy.

Really, the more I think about it, the more I think it's just my dad that's the problem. If I were at a friend's house and was asked to do the same thing, I can't imagine it would bother me in the slightest. But hey, systems theory...

Emily, it sounds like you feel troubled by several issues with your dad.  You feel as though he does not respect your beliefs and choices. And you feel as though he is constantly seeking reassurance from you.

Do you think it might help to communicate some of these feelings to him?  It might be better to decouple that from the kiddush participation, since that's not really the underlying issue.

He has an adult daughter who makes her own decisions about religious beliefs and practices.  He really needs to come to terms with that.  You don't need to argue at length -- arguing makes it seem like some things are up for negotiation and debate when they are not.  You can make it clear that you are an adult who is happy to share a family holiday, but you make your own choices.

And it also sounds like he feels insecure and isolated in the family because of his changes in beliefs and practices.  You can reassure him that you love him, but let him know that (whatever his behaviors are that show insecurity) are counterproductive and tend to drive you away rather than making you closer.

Could this be an opportunity to address the underlying issues instead of struggling about the symptom?

I would just fake it.

Alevin, I'm honestly not sure how he feels about my religion (or lack thereof), it's never been an issue between us. I think he knows that he went a very radical route, and I think he wishes he had a family who could share that with him, but accepts that that's not the case.

His real issue with me is my choice of career. He doesn't see it as lucrative, and implies often that I can do/could have done better. I have confronted him about this, and he denies that he thinks this, although he will alternate that with statements like, "Just consider the Harvard MPH program, please?"

But you hit the nail on the head about his insecurity. He is not sure how to form a relationship with me after having left. The only way he knows how to do this is to buy me things (he's close to broke, so this is hard for me to deal with) and impose time together (for example, calling my mom to tell her that they need to make a rule that their adult children switch off Thanksgivings between them). He forgets that relationships are built on mutual respect and support. I last told him what you suggested a couple years ago, but I think this is a great opportunity to remind him.

Thanks for more insightful feedback.

Wow, I can really see that insecurity issue from your dad's point of view.  He is terrified of losing his connection to his daughter since his marriage has broken up.

Of course he is going about trying to renew that connection in a very unhelpful way. If you last talked about this two years ago, it sounds like a great time to bring it up, since his fears are dominating his perception. You can tell him that you love him, and will love him regardless of gifts.  You can tell him that you want to spend time with him, negotiate schedules that work for you, and tell him that he doesn't need to re-remind everybody to make it happen.

Good luck. Think about how many men leave and then ignore their children or lose touch with them! He is trying desperately not to do that.  You can hopefully help him come up with more constructive ways of staying connected.

Original Post by emilyd22222:

 but he says things like "I don't ask you to do much," and "Just do this one thing for me." I usually give in rather than make it an issue. But it really fundamentally bothers me, and I can't completely articulate why.

Ha! My dad is orthodox jewish (kind of) too! Following the rules he likes...while ignoring the ones that are a pain (like no driving on whatever day they dont drive).

AND he does the same things with me! Saying the exact same thing when he tries to get me to come to cinegog. But, i tell him straight that religion is simply gross ignorance and i wont support it at all. If he wants to do it...fine... but its not something i would participate in (when i was younger, they could force us to go ... but at my age, its not something i want as part of my life).

As the years pass, his efforts to get me to go decrease and now its just a passing "you sure you dont want to go with me this weekend?".

I dont mind spending time with him though, i think thats great. So going out to dinner or movie or whatever is fine....just as long as it doesnt have to do with something so amazingly stupid as religion.

Well I'm stubborn and wouldn't do it, and if they were insisting I just would find somewhere else to spend the holidays telling him why, but that's me and being on my own at this time of year doesn't put me up nor down.

however, I would say if you are spending the holidays with him it perhaps would be better to play along with it "When in Rome" and all that.

As a side note - Hannukkah is not a major religious holiday. You'd be expected to be a lot more spiritual if it were Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashannah - Hannukkah is a big holiday because of when it's timed in the year. I'm sure he'll be celebrating but as a conservative/orthodox jew I'm sure he's celebrating a more traditional hannukkah - he'll light the menorah and sing the song while he does it - it's really just a 5 minute ordeal.

Today I had a family hanukkah party and I brought with me my boyfriend who is catholic - he bowed his head and prayed when everyone else did and read along with it - it's just respectful. Nobody's G-d is any different than anyone else's G-d. Just because you're saying words doesn't matter - it's what you're thinking about.