too much protein???

I have noticed there are many posts regarding protein insufficiency in diet, i have the opposite question.

I weigh 45kg but i'm short so i'm have a normal BMI, if it's like what everyone says, you only need 0.35g/pound, i only need about 35g of protein, but i'm eating around 50-60 everyday. i'm a pesco-vegetarian, there's so many protein in fish and legumes i can easily consume 35g half way through the day.

i know that animal protein can be bad for u, how about vegetable protein?

The formula is .8g of protein per 2.2 lbs of body weight a day.  For me, that's 49g a day.  If you weigh 99.3lbs, you need about 36g.  According to this article, "

When people start consuming too much protein (over 2.0 g/kg/d), the extra protein can become a stressful stimulus for the kidney. This is even more of a concern as we get older and our organs are less efficient and effective."  So it sounds like you're close to the line (when you hit 60g), but not quite over it yet.

 That figure is only valid for sedentary individuals. People who work in offices, drive everywhere and veg out in front of the TV all day.

 For active individuals, the figure is higher, up to 1.6-1.8 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight according to the latest research in  Journal of American College of Nutrition. So unless you're glued to your chair all day, that figure is wrong.

 The kidney stress thing... hmm. Can you link to that article? I mean, even people on Atkins with their ridiculous levels of protein consumption haven't been shown to have especially stressed kidneys or other organs in controlled studies. Well, that I've seen, anyway - if you can show me something to make me change my mind I'd be interested.

 If MikeLane is around I'm sure he'd disagree a bit with me here on the exact figure for how much you should be consuming, but we've figured out that we aren't in as much disagreement as we initially thought. He thinks you should limit your protein consumption to about 10-15% of your calorie budget, (5% max animal protein, the rest plant), and I don't care what percentage you're at, just that you get enough of it from whatever source works for you :)

(Edited to add link)

Original Post by melkor:

 
 The kidney stress thing... hmm. Can you link to that article? I mean, even people on Atkins with their ridiculous levels of protein consumption haven't been shown to have especially stressed kidneys or other organs in controlled studies. Well, that I've seen, anyway - if you can show me something to make me change my mind I'd be interested.

 

Hi Melkor,

The following contains some good info. on the link between high protein consumption and kidney problems

Kidney's and Protein

 Interesting. Though it looks mostly like a hydration/dehydration issue, more than anything specific to protein consumption levels - protein metabolism does require more water. And already-impaired kidney functions can be further stressed by high protein consumption, though as noted healthy kidneys won't be given adequate hydration.

 That said, I'm not a fan of Atkins or any other extreme diet like that - cutting out an entire macronutrient group from your diet strikes me as unbalanced, and impossible to maintain over longer periods. Which defeats the whole purpose of lifestyle change diets. Going veggie or vegan is completely different. You lot are not cutting out protein, just a specific source of it, which is something that can be maintained as a lifestyle.

 Though the longitudinal studies referred to on that site are interesting - I'm going to have to read up on them to comment further.

I take in at least 75g of protein a day (as recommended by my PT), but then again I also do weight training.

melkor, this makes me think the JACN isn't a credible resource.

I don't think that's too much protein... I've read that you should eat 1gram of protein per pound of lean body mass per day if you want to maintain, and 1.25 grams per day if you want to gain muscle. (i.e. if your body fat percentage is 22% and you weigh 150lbs,  you should eat 132 grams of protein per day.

The key is to eat lean protein from chicken, turkey, tuna, salmon, halibut, egg whites etc etc. I also use a whey protein powder because I can't eat that much meat in a day (I aim for 125grams per day but I'm happy with anything above 100)

 Huh.

 Well, crap.  Yeah, you're right, Mike. I'm not about to dismiss them completely as they haven't been kicked out of PubMed, but yeah, it's worth taking their publications with a pinch of salt as it were.

Hmpfh. I still say that we're closer to agreeing than we thought at first, and if the JACN study turns out to be ...less than reliable... I think I'm the one who needs to modify his position.

And we're still haggling over percentage points :)

Original Post by melkor:

Huh.

Well, crap. Yeah, you're right, Mike. I'm not about to dismiss them completely as they haven't been kicked out of PubMed, but yeah, it's worth taking their publications with a pinch of salt as it were.

Hmpfh. I still say that we're closer to agreeing than we thought at first, and if the JACN study turns out to be ...less than reliable... I think I'm the one who needs to modify his position.

And we're still haggling over percentage points :)

We don't need to hijack this thread too

Original Post by babyd:

I don't think that's too much protein... I've read that you should eat 1gram of protein per pound of lean body mass per day if you want to maintain, and 1.25 grams per day if you want to gain muscle. (i.e. if your body fat percentage is 22% and you weigh 150lbs, you should eat 132 grams of protein per day.

The key is to eat lean protein from chicken, turkey, tuna, salmon, halibut, egg whites etc etc. I also use a whey protein powder because I can't eat that much meat in a day (I aim for 125grams per day but I'm happy with anything above 100)

 The WHO recommends that 10-15% of your calories come from protein and that most of that protein comes from plant sources.  The results of hundreds of other studies show that you should limit your protein intake to 5% of your calories to avoid the chronic diseases that kill most westerners.  Whatever you choose to follow, just know that the 1g per 1lb is a dangerous level of protein (unless you're some kind of olympic marathon running dwarf I suppose! :D - hah what a mental picture!).  So if you consume 2000 calories per day you'll need to get 25g of protein or 50g to 75g if you're following the WHO guidelines.  As you workout, your caloric needs go up, and no one macronutrient is more important than any other.

Didn't I say I wasn't going to hijack this thread?  Oh well, let the berating begin.  Melkor, dm84?  I know you're out waiting to pounce!  lol 

Original Post by babyd:

The key is to eat lean protein from chicken, turkey, tuna, salmon, halibut, egg whites etc etc. I also use a whey protein powder because I can't eat that much meat in a day (I aim for 125grams per day but I'm happy with anything above 100)

Psst - babyd, this is the vegetarian forum.  ;)  Not calling you out by any means, or implying you cannot post here.  But it happens *all* the time that people click on a thread in the recent topics list and don't realize it's a veg thread.  Just in case you planned a follow up post, thought you should know.  :)

oops haha my bad! ignore all that then...

 Hmm, actually, if we agree to go by the WHO figures, for her 50 to 75 grams of protein would be spot-on according to my lights too - that's about 1.1g/kg to 1.6g/kg for a 45-kg female. And I'd actually go with the lower end of the figure there of 1.1g/kg unless she's lifting weights on a regular basis or doing cardio more than an hour a day on average.

 If she was sedentary, i.e. no exercise beyond hunting the remote, I'd even  go close to your lowest figure - 25g of protein seems too low at 0.56g/kg, but if we bump her to 0.8g/kg that's still only 36 grams for a 45-kg female, and based on my personal experience with protein deprivation you'll have to work hard to achieve that low a level. At that point the protein in frickin' carrots become significant - 1.5g per 100 grams carrot, for example, not to mention the protein level in grains. Raw oats at 13.5% protein is right out :)

 So yeah, I think we've actually found a case where we're close to agreement - the 5% figure goes a little low by my lights, but it's not a number that leaves me staggered. Now, if we could calculate her lean body mass and BF percentage and I could redo my math on that basis it's possible the lower end of the range would be adjusted somewhat upward, but at the same time the top estimate would probably drop some so the net effect should be a narrowing of the range from my PoV.

 Now, as we've been over before the math changes slightly for someone larger, but as my hypothetical case showed it still only worked out to a max of 20% calories from protein - and that was for someone training at a competitive athletics level -  I think that our positions aren't completely incompatible.

I can live with that.  I don't have a problem telling people the results of things like The China Study and then having another sensible point of view to go along with that.  People can read for themselves and make up their own minds.

I do have a problem with people suggesting that 125g of protein for your average Joe or Jane is the right amount and then suggesting all kinds of terrible foods and protein supplements to get them there.

So anyhow, for the record, I'm sticking with TCS recommendation of 5% regardless of activity level :) 

 Well, 125 grams would mean you were a (125g:1.8g/kg=) 69.4kg athlete competing in the light middleweight division (66.7-69.9 kg), a (125g:1.6g/kg = )78.1 kg amateur sports/fitness enthusiast working out at least half an hour a day, or a (125g:1.4g/kg=)89.2 kg individual working out at least three times a week and living a generally non-sedentary livestyle otherwise.

 That's roughly 150 pounds, 170 pounds and 195 pounds for those of you who unlike Mike and me don't speak metric - and for the couch potato case (125g:0.8g/kg=156 kg) you'd have to be all muscle and 343 pounds heavy - somehow, I just don't see that happening. Protein needs should generally be calculated according to lean body mass - muscle and skeletal mass, and I just don't see the couch potato having that much muscle to fuel.

 Generally, people should get as much of their nutrition as possible from solid food - we evolved to eat our meals, not drink them. And people rarely need protein shakes to eat nutritionally complete diets as long as they're willing to ..say, log onto CC and keep track of what they actually eat. Sometimes it can be convenient to use shakes and powders to make adjustments in your diet without adding too much of either fat or carbs, but generally speaking that's only 'cause I'm a lazy ass who can't be bothered to cook another piece of salmon and not because my dietary needs are so high I must use powders. Well, in my personal case anyway.

 So given that 125g of protein is about 500 calories, you'd have to be working out to the tune of 2500 calories a day minimum, and more likely 3000 before needing that - between 20%-16% of daily energy needs for someone who trains hard every day.

 You know, once we go over the numbers I'm not really seeing much of a disagreement between us for anything beyond the edge cases of pro/am bodybuilders for the WHO numbers.

 Did you find out if the China Study recommendation was 5% animal protein consumption or 5% total protein, by the way?
 

5% of TOTAL protein for your daily calorie intake? That's crazy; I get like 28-30% of my calories from protein. Heck, I'm sure not going on that China Study thing - I like meh proteins! And besides, I don't get them all from fatty meats, in fact, the only meats that I ever really eat are chicken or turkey, and the occasional bison or extra, extra lean beef.

5% protein can not be right, or good for you. You should get a balance of about...

• 15-20% fats
• 25-30% proteins
• 50 - 60% carbohydrates

Hey, Zeb, this is a vegetarian forum--sorry, you might have overlooked that.

I found even before my veg days when I ate or when I do eat too much protein (in excess of about 60 g. ) I get a terrible itchy rash on my legs and I get terrible stomach upset.  I have to watch that I don't get too concentrated sources, though.

*smacks forehead* Sorry, I didn't notice that! I was just searching for 'protein' on the search engine and this came up.

Original Post by zebulancherry:

5% of TOTAL protein for your daily calorie intake? That's crazy; I get like 28-30% of my calories from protein. Heck, I'm sure not going on that China Study thing - I like meh proteins! And besides, I don't get them all from fatty meats, in fact, the only meats that I ever really eat are chicken or turkey, and the occasional bison or extra, extra lean beef.

5% protein can not be right, or good for you. You should get a balance of about...

• 15-20% fats
• 25-30% proteins
• 50 - 60% carbohydrates

 First off I hate it that people are told not to post arguments or challenges in the vegetarian forum.  That seems just plain silly.  Are we vegetarians so unsure about our selves and our diets that we just can't handle the thought of someone disagreeing with us?  Ugh.

So on to your comment.  If you're getting 28 to 30% of your calories from animal protein, then you are in grave danger of developing one of the big three chronic diseases that kill 2/3rds of the western world - heart disease, cancer, and autoimmune diseases.  Any consumption of animal protein has been shown to increase the risk of these diseases; however, consuming greater than 10% is where there is a marked increase in risk.  Consuming outlandish amounts of protein like your 28 to 30% is fine so long as it comes from plant-based sources.  Though, I'm pretty sure that it'd be next to impossible to do that without stuffing your gourde with tofu or TVP, but I haven't run the numbers.

Oh and incidentally, it's not the fat in the meat that is the big problem, it's the protein.  You should check out The China Study, it may change your life.  If not, at least it's a quick read and you won't have wasted too much time on it. 

It is interesting that you're advocating a high protein, low fat, low carbohydrate diet.  I'm thinking I would be hungry pretty much all the time if I were to try to eat like that.  No thanks.  I'll stick with the ratios that the WHO recommends (pdf - page 56):

• Total fat - 15 to 30%
  
  • Saturated fatty acids - <10%
  • Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) - 6 to 10%
    
    • Omega-6 Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) - 5 to 8%
    • Omega-3 Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) - 1 to 2%
  • Trans fatty acids - <1%
  • Monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs) - By difference
• Total carbohydrate - 55 to 75%
  • Free sugars - <10%
• Protein - 10 to 15%
• Cholesterol - <300 mg per day
• Sodium chloride (sodium) - <5 g per day
• Fruits and vegetables - 5400 g per day
• Total dietary fibre - From foods
• Non-starch polysaccharides (NSP) - From foods

I get at least 100g of protein a day with no meat.

I eat low-fat, usually fat free dairy. This is a big contributor to my protein. Like 95% of the fat I eat derives from nuts and nut butters. As long as you're not gulping 20 egg yolks a day, a bit of fat from dairy won't hurt.

Following dairy are lentils, beans, and whole grains. You should be eating these anyway, as they are staples in a vegetarian diet. I used to convince myself that people could live off pure veggies and fruits.

Then again, I was anorexic at that time.