Protein question...

   I've learned a lot here, and I'm trying to be Sure and use enough protein to maintain what muscle I (hope! lol), I have. Esp. with a year+ to get the weight off safely...

   I read a link that was posted by one of the extra-good posters here- a trainer I believe, (some have advised me well before, and I appreciate that a lot... CC is Great!) However, the link recommended 1 or more grams protein per lb of body weight, which would be 213-426 when I began... and I couldn't achieve that on 1200 +exercise calories. I've tried for 100+ grams as-much-as-possible.

   I recently read- by bodyscience?- that it should be 1 gram or so per lb 'of lean muscle weight'... (I don't mean that as a quote, I may not have it quite right, just indicating the different part in the information that I didn't know about before...)

   By that guideline I would need to find what my muscle weight is. I WAS 206.5, bmi 37.7 :-(  Now,  my bmi is 34.2, with 187 lbs,  with a small frame. I am a usually-sedentary, (getting more active as this weight gets out-of-my-way!), semi-retired mom,  44 y/o, so... how many grams of protein should I aim for? A daily min. is my goal, with more when I exercise. (I recently read a min. of 20+ grams after weights... I will use a protein shake then.)

   Thanks-in-advance, I'm confident that I'll get this all worked out soon with the great advisers on these forums :-)

I've read stuff like that before too. Personally, I think the 1 grams of protein per lb. of body weight is excessive.

The FDA suggests about 25-30% of your daily calories come from protein. That's the number I personally go by. :)

Maintaining muscle is a whole different ballgame than trying to build muscle.  The 1 gram per pound of body weight is for people trying to build muscle mass.  You should be able to maintain muscle mass fine with about half that amount.  And I agree that the timing is particularly important ... make sure you get a good mix of carbohydrates and protein within 30 minutes of working out.

Congrats on your progress and good luck!

listening to the fda is one of the reason we are the fattest country in the world. those recommendations are for people that don't exercise. with your weight and not knowing your lean mass try and get around 85-90 grams per day. a higher protein diet will help you to lose more weight and keep your muscles tight and strong.

   Thanks everyone! 

   I forget sometimes why I start doing things, so I'll explain that I also like a higher protein level because I've seen it recommended to boost metabolism/ calorie burning-it is harder work to digest, seemingly- and satisfies me longer. (My husband is a 'string-bean' with low blood sugar, so I've seen the sustaining power protein has for him, too.)

   Also, I'm low metabolism/ low blood pressure, and protein helps me the most of the food groups... but I get A's daily in nutrition, which I studied up on to keep the min. carbs, fiber, etc. in a balanced 'pie', and 3 qts daily water... I felt light-headed with 4 qts, and that stopped with 3...  20/30/50 was my 'pie', but I've gone closer to -20/40/40, (healthy fats), when I can...

   I'm motivated by number crunching, esp. when loss is slow-- it helps me feel 'It Has to be Working' when I can't always 'see' it...

   Also, when this IS a 'Life'-Style, I want to be careful to do it correctly and learn better habits as I lose so much... And gain some muscle when I can, as-soon-as-I-can! LOL

The extra protein thing is a myth.  Keep in mind that it is typically reccomended in magazines and on websites that either advertise or sell protein supplements.  Clinical research has not found the extra protein to be beneficial except in two cases:

1.  Beginners who are just starting resistance training

2.  People on gear.

The reason why is that these are the only two situations where the extra protein can actually be utilized for muscle-building.   When do people make their best gains?  When they initially start working out (some basically double their lifts in a matter of months).  People on AAS can build more muscle.  For the rest of us, what are we talking about gaining in terms of muscle, optimistically?  How much protein is that one extra rep you got this week or the extra 5 lbs on the barbell going to need?  Not much.  I don't think anyone needs more than 0.8g per lb bodyweight unless they are on AAS.

amen to bodyscience's post

I always thought all this 1g protein/lb was bunk until I tried it.  (Going on 16 weeks now)  I can say I'm in the best shape of my life now.  I had been working out and watching what I ate (kept it clean) but didn't see the results I wanted until I upped my protein and starting eating 6 small meals a day.  

I eat at 1400-1600 calories a day for a total of at least 120 grams of protein a day,  I then "burn off" 300 calories a day with lifting and/or cardio. 

My advice: I would shoot for your "goal weight" in grams of protein if your current weight in grams prohibits you making your calorie goals.  Just keep it up and try and maximized your protein with what calories you are allowed.

Muscle cells go into overdrive to make new proteins after a weight training session. muscle size reflects the balance between making new proteins and the breakdown of old proteins. muscle breakdown accelerates after weight training often exceeding the rate of protein synthesis.catabolic hormones such as corticosteroids and anti growth factors such as myostatin, speed the rate of muscle breakdown after exercise a goal of any weight trained athlete or bodybuilder is to speed the rate of muscle hypertrophy and to slow the breakdown of muscle. In several studies a low protein intake decreased IGF-1( a key hormone in muscle growth) and slowed muscle growth. A high protein diet was shown to increase IGF-1 and helped to increase muscle recovery and growth.

The take home story is everybody needs to find the right combination for them, bet the more muscle you get the more protein you will need. And the more protein you consume the leaner and stronger you will be. Nobody said to consume 200-300 grams of protein per day, but you will need more the RDA.

Most of that is from incorrect analysis of the data listed in articles or is entirely theoretical (though usually the articles don't make the same claims as those who cite them).  Anyone who is really curious about this all, read this:

http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/protein WeightLifting.htm

or, here is the conclusion if you're lazy:

"In light of the three previous empirical studies, one meta-analysis, and two review articles, protein supplementation must be approached with skepticism and doubt.  In recognition that the benefits of protein are posited by those who are manufacturing or selling the product, this empirical analysis and scientific literature review presents an unbiased, unequivocal view of protein supplementation as most likely unnecessary and certainly unproven.  While Tipton and Wolfe (2004) doubt even the basis that athletes or weight lifters might need more protein, Lawrence and Kirby (2002) suggest that the habitual diet of athletes more than contributes necessary protein.  Additionally, all three empirical studies found similar results.  Protein supplementation (no matter the amount of protein supplemented) has no significant effects in increasing mass or strength in men (Chromiak, Smedley, Carpenter, Brown, Koh, Lamberth, Joe, Abadie, & Altorfer 2004) or women (Antonio, Sanders, Ehler, Uelmen, Raether, & Stout 2000).   The paucity of empirical studies that support protein supplementation as a way to increase mass and strength further diminishes any potential desire to supplement.  The expense of protein supplements and their unproven effectiveness should be reason enough to avoid buying into this unproven product.  As mentioned earlier, protein requirements for athletes and weight trainers are usually already met by habitual diet and perhaps the best way to increase mass or strength is to increase total energy intake (Tipton & Wolfe 2004).  Thus, the best way to increase body mass and muscle strength is to continue resistance training and increase total caloric intake.  Protein supplements are expensive, unproven, and only supported by manufacturers and those who sell them."  

i guess this is going to be a mute point we can both find studies that prove the opposite from independent sources. All I know is that most peoples diets don't include the right balance of nutrients which is why protein supplements come about. And if you look at the science of cellular breakdown protein is needed, the amount will always be open to debate, But I know what has worked for my clients, myself and friends.

On the contrary, I don't think you're going to find studies that support you.  The meta-analysis in particular would have included them because it would improve their statistical power.  Even if the research did find the opposite, it would have helped them to include it.  But this always is mentioned in these debates:

"But I know what has worked for my clients, myself and friends."

You don't know unless you've controlled for it.  It could be completely placebo effect.

Back again- had to go to town... :-/

   Sorry to be delayed in responding, but, as I'd written above, my reasons for extra protein are more than one, and I AM a 'beginner'... as well. Thank you all for your patience...

   jredig, thanks for the 'voice of experience', that is what I'm seeking in these forums! Your idea is right in line with bodysciences' advice, and you put it in a nice point of reference- my 'goal weight' is close to 100, as I'm short with a small frame, (so, 2bittybitty fit me in a healthy way), and my plan is almost the same as what you've described. Just what I needed.

   eastside, Hello! I'm new here and haven't looked at your profile yet, but I appreciate your concern. I haven't noted your name before, so I don't know if you're new or not, but thanks for responding to a newbies' question.

   bodyscience, thanks again! I feel honored when you choose to reply to any post of mine :-) I have seen your profile and many posts by you, so I have to simply say 'the proof's in the pudding'... Awesome 'placebo effect'... Lotta' folks wouldn't want THAT much, but a little of it would be highly sought after if it was 'contagious' or obtainable in some way besides hard work...LOL.  'Your clients, yourself and friends', says it all, in my book... I'll be aiming for what you've said- I Do research nutrition, and losing muscle for over a year, while losing fat, is TOO scary! Gotta' protect what I can! LOL! 

Thanks bodyscience I Was only doing about 25-45 grams of protein a day. I am gonna bump it up to about 45 and do 2 workout sessions I will probably see improvement in muscle since I havent seen any in a while?

you know eastside it;s one thing to have an opinion and another thing to call me a liar,and to say all of the hundreds of personal training clients I have had in my 17 years of training lost weight from a placebo effect! Man you have got some nerve. I guess I should go and return my B.S. on exercise physiology, oh and my degree in nutrition and my 3 certifications, because you found some study of something that has been debated for the last 20 years, There are new studies coming out everyday. The new england journal of medicine just did a new study last month about this, but i guess they are wrong to.

For everybody else, protein is the second most abundant nutrient in the human body, next to water. Protein is in your bones, hair, skin, organs,and muscle. So the more you build the more you will need, it is a simple mathematic equation. If anybody has any questions most of you know where to reach me.

I'm so glad you asked this question!  I asked on similar and I just wasn't getting the info I needed.  My chart for today showed over 60% of my intake is carbs, and I'm thinking that's way wrong.

Is that correct bodyscience?  I should drop the carbs and raise the protein?  My goal is to lose weight and build lean muscle.

Also, I guess I wonder, how do you eat 80-100 grams of protein per day without having huge amounts of calories???

Thats the hard part, a lot of it is portion control and choosing the right meats to eat. If you can manage to get a protein in each meal, and maybe a shake after the workout you should be close. Most of the carbs should be veggies which are rich in nutrients and low in calories.

So... I'm stuck with a diet of chicken, broccoli and peanut butter??  LOL!!!!!

So, some sort of a protein shake is a good idea?  I'm really trying to work it all it, but good grief, protein is so hard to get!  Beans maybe? 

Thanks for your help!

beans have protion inthem but it is an incomplete protein. Maybe this will help; Your body uses protein as it's major source of material for building and repairing blood, muscles, bones, teeth, skin, hair, nails, and your internal organs. Protein comes from a Greek word meaning 'of primary importance.'

All about Protein, Different Sources and Combining Proteins!

By: Nathan Underhill

Your body uses protein as it's major source of material for building and repairing blood, muscles, bones, teeth, skin, hair, nails, and your internal organs. Protein comes from a Greek word meaning "of primary importance."

All About Protein

Protein molecules also make up certain enzymes and hormones and serve as important regulators in your body. They help maintain your blood pressure, blood sugar level, and your metabolism.

Protein is the most complex group of substances known to science. It is made up of smaller molecules called amino acids. Your body needs a total of 22 different amino acids to form all of its necessary protein. Your cells can make many of them, but 8 of them can be obtained only through the food you eat. These 8 are called the essential amino acids. They are tryptophan, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, valine, leucine, and isoleucine.

Most protein foods of animal origin such as meat, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, contain all of the essential amino acids and are therefore called complete proteins. Proteins found in vegetables are usually lacking one or more of the essential amino acids, so they are called incomplete proteins. However, you can combine 2 incomplete vegetable proteins to make a very high quality complete protein.

Different sources of protein:

Fish-

Fish is a very high quality protein. In contrast to the fat found in animal flesh, the oil found in fish has some beneficial effects for humans. Fish oil helps keep blood cholesterol levels low, resulting in fewer heart attacks.

The protein in the flesh of white fish such as perch, cod, or haddock is a better quality than the flesh of catfish who eat garbage off the bottom. Catfish and shellfish are scavengers, and shellfish in particular hold quite a lot of toxicity in their flesh. A very convenient way to enjoy fish is right out of the can. Canned tuna, salmon, herring, mackerel, and sardines are all good sources of protein.

Eggs-

Eggs contain a high-quality complete protein. For years, the protein in eggs has been used as the standard against which to measure the quality of other protein sources. Eggs are a good food that can be safely eaten in reasonable amounts by most healthy people. A great deal of concern has been expressed about the cholesterol contained in eggs, but eggs also contain lecithin, which helps to prevent fats from accumulating on the walls of the arteries.

A study revealed that some people who eat many eggs show an increase in blood cholesterol, while most people are unaffected. If you are sensitive to the cholesterol in egg yolks, you may substitute 2 egg whites for each egg. A large egg contains 6 grams of protein and 80 calories.

Milk-

Milk is a complete protein and can be a valuable part of a balanced diet. Milk combines easily with many other foods. Any vegetable protein can be made complete when combined with milk. One cup of skim milk contains 8 grams of protein and just 90 calories.

Cheese-

There are many kinds of cheese, most of which are high in protein, and many of which are fairly high in fat. People who have difficulty digesting milk, usually do not have a problem with cheese.

The hard cheeses such as cheddar, mozzarella, and American processed cheese are the most commonly known. These average about 7 grams of protein per ounce and about 100 calories.

Cottage cheese-

Cottage cheese is very high in protein and low in calories. One-half cup of fat free cottage cheese contains 14 grams of protein, and one-third cup of regular cottage cheese contains 9 grams of protein.

Yogurt and buttermilk-

Yogurt and buttermilk are made from milk that has been cultured with good bacteria. These dairy products have al the nutritive value of milk and are easier to digest. Some bacteria such as acidophilus, lactobacillus, and others found in yogurt and buttermilk are beneficial to your digestive system. They help your body make important vitamins, principally vitamin k, as well as some of the B-complex vitamins. These good bacteria are important in fighting certain infections as well as in helping to maintain proper elimination.

Combining proteins

Three major categories of vegetable proteins:

1. 1. Legumes 2. 2. Grains 3. 3. Nuts and Seeds

Four major principles of combining vegetable proteins:

1. 1. Combine Legumes with grains 2. 2. Combine nuts or seeds with legumes or grains 3. 3. Combine animal products with any vegetable product 4. 4. Add a small amount of meat to a meal of vegetables

Combining Legumes with Grains

One of the most popular combinations of vegetable proteins is using legumes with grains. Legumes are plants whose seeds grow in pods such as peas, beans, and peanuts. When the pods of peas or beans are young and immature, they are especially high in vitamin A and iron. As they mature, however, their protein value increases substantially. Grains include rice, wheat, corn, rye and others. The very amino acids that are missing in beans are found in abundance in grains.

Combining Nuts and seeds with Legumes or Grains

Even in small amounts, nuts and seeds can be used to add a lot of nutrition, flavor, and a chewy texture. All nuts and seeds are high in fat, but these are mostly unsaturated. Nuts are generally lower in protein and higher in fat than seeds.

When you eat the seeds of a plant you usually get a good amount of protein, as compared to eating the leaves or stem. Nuts and seeds have an excellent quality protein, however, to make a complete vegetable protein food, they should be eaten with legumes or grains.

Pumpkin or squash seeds are the highest in protein of all commonly eaten seeds. Sunflower seeds are second highest in protein. These are the most nutritious eaten raw. Flaxseeds and sesame seeds are high in protein and also a good source of calcium.

Walnuts, almonds and cashews are the highest in protein of the commonly eaten nuts. Brazil nuts, pecans, filberts, and hazelnuts are higher in fat and have less protein proportionately. Coconut is lower in protein and higher in saturated fat than most other nu

i personally trust Bodyscience' word on this, he knows what he is doing, regardless of the different articles/studies whatever that are out.  With his help I changed my nutrition pie to a higher protein/lower carb and felt great..  I also feel i saw results within the first two weeks of following his advice (have been on vacation for the last week, so havent been as "good" about what i was eating, but will be back to keeping a higher protein/lower carb meal plan once i get back home) my belly fat was starting to go away, and my muscles were already looking better.. okay, it wasnt much, but i can see the difference and i am very critical of the way i look..  cant wait to get back on track, where i am not eating out all my meals, or hotel food..  (thanks Sydney :) ) and placebo effect?  who cares, it works..

I found the article that you are using there, and printed the whole thing.  Actually I might start going to that website.  Very cool!

Thanks for the input unicat!  That's the sort of result I am hoping for as well.

Guess I just need to get rich and famous and hire myself a personal trainer.  I really want to make this work!

   WOW!!!! That's incredible bodyscience! THAT is the kind of information that we can all use :-)

   Thank you for your trouble and patience, esp. when it seems unappreciated and repetitive, I'm sure! (I was almost afraid to check the thread this morning, in case you {or I, lol} were under attack for thinking protein matters so much-- if you have low blood sugar, you'll learn it Does!!!)

   Thanks, everybody! Anybody else, feel free to add! I love to read about other folks' experience in this--it helps my confidence for the 'long trail'... ;-)

   Finished first 20 today!!! 1/5 gone-for-good!!!