protein for weight loss?

so there's two groups of people on here, those that think more protein than carbs = weight loss, and those that think more carbs than protein = weight loss.

anyone, on either side, have an opinion (or facts) as to how much protein is good for you?  i have a hard time eating more protein than carbs, as my percentages are usually 50% carbs, 30% protein, 20% fat.  hoping to find out just how many ounces (or grams) of protein those with successful weight loss eat on a daily basis.

thanks 

Those are actually really good percentages in my opinion.

Protein seems to be a touchy subject. Personally I aim to eat 100g a day (more if I have a heavy workout). It worked for me once, so I'm thinking it'll do the trick again.

I'll give my opinion based on my reading. You should get 5% 10% (edited, see below) of your calories from protein and minimize what protein comes from animal products, 15% from fat and the rest from complex carbs. That's easy to do on a whole foods, plant based diet. Check out the book The China Study and the book Eat to Live to read more.

On the other hand, the World Health Organization recommends the following (pdf):

• Total fat 15--30%
  • Saturated fatty acids <10%
    • Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) 6--10%
      • Omega-6 Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) 5--8%
      • Omega-3 Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) 1--2%
    • Trans fatty acids <1%
    • Monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs) By difference
• Total carbohydrate 55--75%
  • Free sugars <10%
• Protein 10--15%
• Cholesterol <300 mg per day
• Sodium chloride (sodium) <5 g per day
• Fruits and vegetables 5400 g per day
• Total dietary fibre From foods
• Non-starch polysaccharides (NSP) From foods
• 60 mins of moderate physical activity per day

 ..And based on the discussion/arguments me and Mike have been having the last few days we're almost seeing eye to eye on the issue.

 Well, I still think 5% protein total is a bit low for most people, but when I've run the numbers lately (0.8-1.6 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight depending on activity level) I've arrived at figures that roughly correlate to the upper bounds of Mike's WHO-based estimates. Actually, in at least one case I landed on the lower bound.

 Though there's still the somewhat large gap between the China Study figures and what seems necessary based on the WHO recommendations, it's not as if nutritional science has definite answers at this time. So at some point one has to go with one's gut feeling and just pay attention to your own body response.

 Though I think Mike agrees with me that the Atkins people are freaking insane.

If protein is a touchy subject, fat is completely taboo! LOL! These days people are terrified of it but my fat & carb %s are about even most days and protein a little bit less. Say 37/26/37 or so. I aim for about 1500 cals a day (I am 5'9") and probably average about 100-110 g of protein a day and I've lost 28 lbs since April.

Just so people don't think I'm doing some crazy Atkins diet - here's what I ate yesterday:

Breakfast:
- one slice whole wheat bread with a tbsp of peanut butter and a banana (I kinda made it into a sandwich, sounds weird but it's good)
- one cup skim milk with one scoop of protein powder

Snack:
- one cup of grapes

Lunch:
- 4oz salmon with half a cup of brown rice and a cucumber

Pre workout Snack:
- half cup low fat yogurt with half cup blueberries

Post workout snack:
- one cup skim milk with one scoop protein powder

Dinner:
- 4oz chicken breast with some greek salad

Dessert:
- bran muffin (my own recipe, only 185 cals each)

Total Calories: 1642
Carbs: 178g (40%)
Protein: 144g (35%)
Fat: 45g (25%)

melkor, et al, I got it wrong.  I just re-read some of the protein information in The China Study.  It is the consumption of animal-based protein in excess of 10% of calories that shows dramatic increases in cancer formation.  Even 12% is dangerous.  However, consuming high levels of plant proteins, even as high as 20% or more, has no such effect.  My recollection focused on the 5% because that is the level at which the rats were fed the low (animal) protein (20% was the high end) in the experiments.

So I officially revise my personal recommendations based on my reading.  You should not consume more than 10% of your calories from animal-based protein; however, consuming higher levels of protein from plant-based food is harmless.

melkor, we are on the same page assuming you buy the idea that animal protein is dangerous.  If not, then we are now quibbling about source not percentage.  Sorry, I should have looked that up sooner.  The WHO dietary guidelines (with a backup of TCS about the dangers of animal protein consumption) are now what I'll suggest / follow.

Not that I'm tracking it these days anyhow :) 

may be a silly question that i'll kick myself later for asking, but what plant-based foods contain high levels of protein?

babyd,  you've got next to no roughage in yesterday's menu.  How much fiber did you end up getting?  Do you have a micronutrient count?  How did you do in terms of micronutrients that are naturally in food rather than supplemented in?

Always the thread jacker I am.  Meh.  Mods, if you're not comfortable with where I'm taking this, just let me know and I'll create another all protein arguments all the time thread. :)

Original Post by pchca:

may be a silly question that i'll kick myself later for asking, but what plant-based foods contain high levels of protein?

 That's a great question I think.  We're sort of programmed to think that plants don't have protein in them and that you can only get protein from animal products.  That's just not the case.  One stalk of broccoli (280g) has 98 calories and 6.7g of protein.  500g of romaine lettuce has 6g of protein and only 85 calories.  In 27g of quinoa you have 4g of protein and 100 calories.  A half cup of tofu has 10g of protein and 97 calories.  A half cup of black beans has 8g of protein and 114 calories.

The point is that every plant-based food contains protein.  If you eat a wide enough variety your body will get all the essential amino acids it needs to synthesize protein and you won't suffer the ill effects of eating too much animal protein.  Plus you'll get tons of nutrient goodness to go with it.

Roughage = fiber? If so then 14 grams

Original Post by babyd:

Roughage = fiber? If so then 14 grams

 You may want to study up on how much fiber you need in a day.  Your risk of cancers of the bowel are very high with such a small amount of fiber intake per day.  That's for another thread, though.

It's approx 25 grams of fiber for a 2000 calorie diet right? So if I'm eating 1600 calories, about 20 grams. I'm fairly close, and that's just one day, it goes up and down depending on what I eat (I don't eat the same thing every day). I do understand the importance of fiber tho, hence why even on days like yesterday I try to throw in some blueberries and a bran muffin. 

 Meh, I get most of my protein from oats and skim milk these days with some tuna and salmon for variety - as long as you have a complete amino acid profile the source doesn't matter.

  I'm not completely onboard with the notion that it's animal protein in itself that's dangerous - I think that the current science points to preparation method as the likely culprit. Specifically, open-flame cooking with attendand smoke promotes carcinogen formation in the dietary fats prepared this way (and it's very hard to cook meat without some kind of dietary fat involved.)

 But apart from that relatively minor quibble about why some animal-based food can be risky, yeah, I don't see any problem with a diet based around plant protein as long as one pays attention to getting the essential amino acids.

 Given that, I think we're saying that Pchca's dietary profile seems fine from both our perspectives - I'm holding out for about 1.1 to 1.4 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight for most reasonably physically active individuals, and on a reduced-calorie diet that will at a guess work out to around 30% of calories. (Well, 1.6-1.8 g/kg for very active individuals and athletes in training, but those are edge cases.)

 As for BabyD's menu - well, it wouldn't hurt to add something green and leafy to your menus. Pak-Choi, iceberg lettuce, spinach, broccoloi, cabbage in general - all good, all very low-calorie, and having something leafy-fibrous with every meal is a good idea for both general health and weight loss.

 Celery is also a fun and crunchy vegetable :)

melkor, you should really read The China Study (the book).  That way you can have the findings and references to all the studies the author uses to come to the conclusions that he has.  Honestly, I think you'd change your mind about the dangers of animal protein if you did.

Just saying.

 Oh yeah, if you want high-protein plant food, look to oats. 13% protein by weight, so 100g of rolled oats has 13g protein, more fiber than whole wheat, more vitamins, and it's low GI for those who worry about that sort of thing. The slow carbs in oats are perfect for any endurance-based sport or hard work in general.

And it tastes very good as well - I like oats.

No, Quaker isn't paying me, why do you ask?

ha ha! I'm getting to be a big fan of oatmeal, but I can't eat it plain still (and I hate quaker oats, generic versions are much better). Put a banana in there with it and I'm all set though. I'm thinking I may try a bit of agave nectar sometime. Every 2 or 3 days I give my 1 year old a bowl of oatmeal with a spoonful or two of natural peanut butter or a banana for breakfast. He snarfs it down!

The WHO shows what you need to live healthily and maintain a normal weight. In fact we are trying to do the opposite and loose weight, so surely you cant apply those principles?

Our bodies naturally try to store food and use as little enrgy as possible to fuction at our best. we however are trying to use more energy than we are putting in and get rid of fat stores. I think quoting WHO is hardly relavant here.

Well, no. The WHO recommendations are very sensible guidelines, and the number chrunching I've been doing lately in discussions with MikeLane has shown that on a base-level diet the protein needs in grams/kg bodyweight and protein as a percentage of dietary calories tends to wind up in the same range.

 It's my opinion that for a weight loss regime that includes exercise it's useful to retain the protein and restrict fat/carb somewhat, leading to a protein level that's slightly elevated from the WHO recommendation. This is because the one thing you don't want when losing weight is to diet away muscle, and keeping protein consumption at a normal level for your activity makes that less likely to happen. Given that, it's easy to end up with the 50-30-20 ratio and I don't see that as especially problematic for anyone. When I ran the numbers for myself before I started on the lifestyle change, I wound up with 55-30-15 as an ideal ratio given the starting point of constructing my diet around the protein needs - running the numbers between 1.1g/kg to 1.8 g/kg and adjusting your intake relative to your daily exercise has limited usefulness as your body's protein need don't vary by that much over the course of a week if you're consistent with your exercise - it takes at least a few days to recover from one session, and then it's generally time for the next one anyway.

 So basing your diet around the WHO guidelines and then restricting calories seems to me to be a sensible way of doing things - you're likely to wind up a little off after the effects of calorie restriction are taken into account, but it's a useful starting point.

  (Mike, you realise that we're breaking the rules here. People who have Internet flame wars aren't supposed to reach agreement....)

If we're talking strictly about weight loss. Then the evidence I've seen is mixed at best.

I've read a couple of studies that show that the fat/protein group loses more weight. One showed a substantial difference ~100% the other was in the 20% range. The one review I read ( where a large sample of studies are taken into consideration and weighed ) stated that there was no significant difference.

That said I'm reading 'Good calories/Bad Calories' which I hear takes a very 'pro-protein' position and it would be interesting to see his evidence ( If I read the author correctly he's directly in conflict with some of the China Study** conclusions).

Speaking of the "China Study**" it's interesting to see large scale research going on but a large N isn't everything. The thing I'd like to read the most is what answers they have for other modern studies that contradict some of the information they give (especially when these studies are better controlled).

As I've said before anyone wanting specific studies, feel free to ask via email.

**By the "China Study" I mean the pro-vegetarian book by that name.  Not the monographs from the China-Cornell-Oxford project.  Since there is some scholarly disagreement that one properly interprets the other.

I think it's the type of carb that matters. I think that if your carbs are coming from whole fruits and colorful vegetable matter- but not grains and starches- then you should certainly make them the vast majority of your diet. Either way, I believe I read that a person needs a minimum of 50g of protein per day.

Personally, I've cut out ALL breads and grains, and get my carbs through veggies, limited fruits, and beans.