Question about Evolution

For you to debate.

Does it matter? Does it really matter in most of our daily lives whether or not we humans were created by God or evolved from monkeys.

Does it change who you are? Does it change how you live? Does it affect whether or not you can get a job or be educated?

Alot of people get hung up about it, because it's not good science, not provable (Edit: Took out personal bias, want to stick to the discussion), but at the end of the day... does it really matter whether or not you believe in evolution or not?

#59 No not really why I am here to me has a totally different meaning/reason. I haven't questioned how man kind got here to start with but now that I am Why?

Way different.....

annd - Fair enough. As I said, one matters to me but the other doesn't. I recognize that they are different.  I was just sort of taken aback by your response at first glance, since the how would sort of play into the why. Like, if God put us here there is more likely to be a reason for it than if we evolved with no sentient guiding hand.

Original Post by freedomfrom:

Of course it matters. Paradoxically, though, it matters so much that it doesn't matter.

Think about it: the answer to the question determines how you understand the makeup of the world. It frames the whole perspective. Admittedly, answers to questions like "what is the basis for morality" don't specifically matter on a daily basis, but the answer to that question does, because it creates the basic sorts of understanding of how you go about your daily business.

Where I think that people misundersand it is that it's not monolithic. Just because two people hold truck with evolution doesn't mean they think the same way about how to deal with poverty, for instance. But any answer has to work within the general framework of the structure of the world.

This post also elaborated a good reason that "why" may matter while "how" may not.

I'm prob gonna regret posting this, but here goes:

For the record, I am an educated scientist with a B.S. in Microbiology,graduated with honors from a respected American University. My parents are Christian Conservatives, and, after some deliberation and  searching, I have accepted my own version of their beliefs.

I was homeschooled, but even then, I was taught BOTH theories (or whatever hte technical term is for creationism nowadays) with both sides given fair treatment for each (although, of course, the spin was that creationism is what we believe, but we have no way to prove it; thus, what you choose to believe is a choice, with an equal lack of evidence on both sides.) I do not see why this pattern cannot be followed in schools? Presenting the evidence for and against both theories. I liked that better, because then I knew exactly what I was accepting to believe, and what I was rejecting. This strengthened my position that I chose to take and helped me understand why I was choosing hte way I did.

Of course, once I got to university, I was taught evolution from the point of view that it was the only viable option. Many who studied science with me are creationists, as am I. It has nothing to do with being a good/competent scientist with what theory you choose to believe. As I said before, there is no "proof" of either one, just what you choose to believe. I understand that creationism sounds ridiculous to those who reject it, but to be honest, evolutionism sounds a little ridiculous to me, as well. But, I have hte right to defend my beliefs becasue I know EXACTLy what I am rejecting, rather than just accepting as law the only theory I've been taught and knowing nothing of the other side. I am thankiful fo rmy parents that at least htey got htis one thing right: teaching both and letting me think for myself. But this is the basis for good science. In any lab, you are presented with all the evidence before anyone knows what is important and what is not, then you must think critically to decide what is reproducible and plausible and what is not.

So I think that good science can definitely go hand in hand with very good science. In fact, lots of prominent scientists today (although I will need to look up their names - sorry!) are actually creationists. If you have any questions, please post or PM me - I love talking science and would love to answer your questions. Of course, I realize most of you will prob not agree with me, but that is totally fine. I understand both sides and realize my beliefs sound ridiculous to many people. I even love talking about my faith to those who do not share it. I love to see their point of view. Thanks for your time.

Original Post by gettinghealthy123:

(although, of course, the spin was that creationism is what we believe, but we have no way to prove it; thus, what you choose to believe is a choice, with an equal lack of evidence on both sides.) I do not see why this pattern cannot be followed in schools?

Which version of "creationism" should be getting equal explanatory time in schools along with the ToE? 

Do you trust your school board or local government to make the choice that is consistent with your, or anyone's particular beliefs, and construct a curriculum that actually presents it as you, or the child's parents, believe?

What about the numerous religious people in any particular school district, Christian or otherwise, that realize beliefs in creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive, and have reconciled the two with their faith?  (That is, if they are to both be presented, why as a choice between one or the other?)

Gettinghealthy, thank you for your post. It has brought a new dimension to the discussion.

Indeed, which version of creation should be taught along with the ToE as Santo has asked? Just your biblical one? Or should we teach all of them.

I'd like to know if you completely dismiss evolution and believe that everything we see now was all created at the same time in 7 24-hour days, or if you believe that creation happened over more time. Do you believe the earth is only 6,000 - 10,000 years old and that all evidence of carbon dating and radio isotope dating is invalid and false science. I really am curious to know.

I do applaud you parents for teaching you their beliefs and then allowing you to be taught evolution. Many christian conservatives don't want the evolution taught at all. They only want their children taught biblical creation. I believe that is a huge disservice to their children.

Original Post by moonikins:

Indeed, which version of creation should be taught along with the ToE as Santo has asked? 

Actually, now that I've reviewed my post again, I'd also like to ask why creation and the ToE are being treated as if they address the same subject?  (One is concerning the origin of life, the other is addressing what happened after the life was already here.)

I don't have any kind of beef with anyone who believes the earth and its occupants were created by a supernatural creator. I truly don't understand the need of some creationists to totally dismiss evolution as heresy.

What bothers me intensely is the need for these type of creationists to try to impose their philosophies and beliefs on others.

Yay Jules :) Love the FSM

I kinda have a split belief when it comes to Evolution. I know that it evolution is the way humans and animals came to be. Way too much evidence to say it didn't happen that way. But, I think that God is still controling it. Who are we to say that a "day" to God is 24 hours? He shouldn't be limited by human concepts. Heck, for all we know, Creation could still be going on! Possibly the 7th day hasn't happened yet?

Original Post by m0m6:

Heck, for all we know, Creation could still be going on! Possibly the 7th day hasn't happened yet?

 Or....a day to "God" is really a millisecond, and all the evidence of an old earth was planted there.

Or....we're all brains in jar being fed complex stimuli to make us think we have bodies and are typing all this stuff.

Lots of possibilities.

#62, yeah totally see what you are saying there, and a very good point too, but I guess for me it just comes down to I have never given the how any real thought. For me I believe in evolution so what's more to think about, that's it we evolved and here we are today. I have never found a use for that knowledge so I never think about and I am sure there are plenty of others who are just the same.

Original Post by anndjoe:

I totally agree, but to force a creation believer to learn about evolution is a total waist of time and money so the subject should be choice only.

People are free to believe in whatever they want but I don't think it is right to force your beliefs on anyone. Just as we object to Religion being forced on us surely it's just as wrong to force ours on them, regardless of any proof we have. Double Standards....

Yikes - NOT a waste of time nor money. Religious individuals who accept evolution would be dismayed to think they might not because theyd never learned it.

I didnt encounter religious origination teachings outside Sunday school's Christian beliefs until attend ing degree-required college humanities courses.  Didnt have interest, being agnostic prior to high school graduatation. 

While plenty support that its a double standard and have legally fought it, thank Spaghetti Monster the Supreme Court protects origination theory based only in science as teaching worthy of the time and funds, allowing creationism, its nepotistic sister intelligent design and other religious beliefs to be represented in strictly non-scientific context.

Original Post by santonacci:

 Or....a day to "God" is really a millisecond, and all the evidence of an old earth was planted there.

Or....we're all brains in jar being fed complex stimuli to make us think we have bodies and are typing all this stuff.

Lots of possibilities.

as long as you except the possibility (it's a fact, but I've got low standards) that hk evolved from a monkey, I have no qualm.

Original Post by anndjoe:

Original Post by jblarghp:

There's over 200 years of scientific proof to back up evolution.

I have yet to see any (logical) proof to back up religion.

I don't see how you can even debate this...
Wouldn't you at least lean towards the more logical explanation...?

 I totally agree, but to force a creation believer to learn about evolution is a total waist of time and money so the subject should be choice only.

People are free to believe in whatever they want but I don't think it is right to force your beliefs on anyone. Just as we object to Religion being forced on us surely it's just as wrong to force ours on them, regardless of any proof we have. Double Standards....

 

Yea, but there's a big difference between a belief and actual proof.

You shouldn't teach someones personal religious beliefs in a school (unless it's a catholic school or whatever,) but I think it's only fair to teach the scientific evidence that backs up evolution.

That's just basic knowledge that everyone should be taught.

I don't have a problem with religion, but I do have a problem when it hinders intelligence.

I don't think that not teaching people who are just going to dismiss what they were taught when they leave the class renders them unintelligent nor do I think learning about it makes you intelligent. You can be aware of things without having been taught them in a class.

Teaching something to someone is only worth while if the person being taught is actually going take something away from the teachings. If they are going to  say "I don't believe all that" seems to me to have been a waste of resources.

 edit to add: I am not saying that those who are religious should not be taught evolution I am saying it should be choice whether to be taught it or not.

"Do you trust your school board or local government to make the choice that is consistent with your, or anyone's particular beliefs, and construct a curriculum that actually presents it as you, or the child's parents, believe" post by santonacci

Well, I dont' think we have to necessarily teach them quite as segregated. I'm not saying i was taught the "correct' way, but what made sense ot me was being presented both at pretty much the same time. creationism was presented as "some people believe" or something similar (maybe Christians believe...?) and evolution as 'some in the scientific community have accepted the theory of evolution" and then the facts were presented. I think merely presenting hte tenets of each theory. (the Bible says.... Darwin found...., etc.) so that it is clear. And then it is up to the parents to teach the kids the version they believe or want them to accept, and the student can weigh the information for themselves. Obviously, the way it is taught now, with only evolution taught, is not consistent with my beliefs, but I take it with a grain of salt, and mesh it with my beliefs the way I have to to accept my own version of what I think may have happened. Of course, there are holes in all theories (how could we really know?) so I don't claim to know "exactly" what happened, but I know enough to do my job, and enough to live. It might be a meshing of both gtheories as one poster said, or it might be completely different altogether. But these are hte two main theories we have now, and that is how we can present it.

i propose it this way because it seems like it is the easiest way to make everyone happy, ensure hte children are completely educated, and the rest is up to the parents (wouldn't they rather be allowed to put their own spin on a neutrally presented science class, anyway, since we don't "know" what happened/ i would think so).

I am not fully aware of the other versions of creationism, but if there are some nonreligious ones (I'm imagining saying Intelligent Design, rather than God?), then that can be given mention, as well, quite easily and quickly. ie, 'the Bible says...' 'others believe in (making this up) a higher being, intelligent designer, who...' and 'the scientific community believes....' This is the evidence used .... etc. I am not even fully aware of what I believe right now, either. I don't think they were 24 hour days because we already believe that time is much faster for God (sorry for the religion there), we know that a thousand years is a millisecond to Him, so I reject the idea that our time is the same as what is written in the Bible. However, the Bible has translation errors, too, so it might not even be days, etc. And, of course, we have no idea how He created except for the account given of Adam. I do know, however, that hte evidence used in support of evolution is completely subject and, in my opinion, utterly useless. I can use the same exact evidence to support creationism. That is why it is only a theory, there is no real proof or evidence. Unfortunately, as a scientist, I would love proof either way. i would loved to be proved wrong if I am.

As I stand right now, moonikins, I completely dismiss evolution. There is too much evidence against it, from what I have found. All of the facts we know to be true and are observing today completely contradict fundamental, core evidence for evolution that must be proved true to be able ot accept the theory. Even Darwin's own words discredit the theory in light of today's findings and knowledge. So I, as a responsible scientist, cannot accept a theory that, essentially, has been proven wrong. Scientists are hesitant to tell the general public this, however, because the only other option right now is a religious one. I hate having to say this about my beloved and respected colleagues and professors, but a new generation of scientists are graduating who know the truth.

furthermore, the earth cannot be more than 10,000 or 15,000 years old due to the second law of thermodynamics, increasing entropy, and what we know about chemistry and physics. Radio isotope and carbon dating are inherent with flaws, and radio isotope is invalid becuase, unless the researcher was there to know when the element became radioactive, we are really only measuring the amount of time a molecule possessed radioactivity. and no, almost no substance became radioactive at the beginning of time - from what we know now, anyway.

And yes, I don' tagree that children should only be taught one side of the coin. Not only is that wrong for the children, but it underminds the parents aim, anyway. Children are not stupid adn will know when the parents are afraid of the truth. Teaching both sides shows that the parent is not afraid of the other side becasue it has been proven wrong, or they can show their children why it is wrong adn they are right. Maybe these parents are uneducated? In the end, everyone chooses for themselves anyway, so sheltering children from facts and secular beliefs and ideas just postpones hte inevitable questioning. I would think those parents would want it done under their own roof, where they are there to answer their children's questions and not later when they are surrounded by maybe only evolutionists. That's how I would want it anyway.

As you can see, I am a huge proponent of letting students hear all sides and weighing for themselves what they believe. parents should arm themselves by sending the children to school with some foreknowledge if they are worried. I was taught the Bible from a very young age. When I was old enough to understand, I was introduced ideas that "non-Christians" had and why "they were wrong." I would advise those parents to do the same if htey have worries.

Sorry for the extremely long post. i lOVE talking science! Thanks, guys, for this opportunity :)

I just read post #77, and I want to say, for the reasons buried in my long-winded above post, that is why parents don't want just evolution taught. The science that backs it up is wrong, faulty, and heavily interpreted. That is the reason they want both taught - they boht have the same amount of "evidence" and if one is taught, so shouldn't the other also?

Just saying.