Question for moral veg*ns

So, there is this PeTA post happening elsewhere on this site, and in it, I suggested that people do a little research on factory farming practices and examine their food choices and a bunch of people jumped down my throat for being "preachy" and trying to force them to not eat meat.  How is that preachy?

I recently realized that I just don't feel right letting everyone I know put on the blinders and eat meat without knowing what their food choices mean for other animals and this planet.  I have found from my own experience that even my friends and family dismiss my attempts.  The reasons they give: meat tastes good and they have always eaten meat and don't want to change.

I don't want to be "preachy." Really.  But those are crappy reasons to eat meat.  It frustrates me so much that there is this big, real problem and everyone is averting their eyes because they don't want to know and they don't want to change.

So, finally we come to the question:  Fellow veg*ns, do you try and sway or convert people you know?  Do you try to educate them?  Do you even admit that you are veg*n for moral reasons?  I didn't admit it for 10 YEARS!!!  I was too embarassed and too afraid of being lumped in with PeTA.  I told people it was because I didn't like meat or for health reasons or whatever, but the truth is I AM VEG BECAUSE WHAT WE DO TO ANIMALS IS WRONG!!!  There, I said it.  Now, do I have to be ashamed for being "preachy?"  Should I go back to pretending like there is nothing wrong with the animal exploitation industry in this society?

the other day my mom said that she thought i was a vegetarian because i love animals so much.  while cute and (sometimes) cuddly, that's so not the reason.

when someone asks me to tell them the truth, i say that it's almost religious to me.  and it is.  i am not god.  i do not have the right to take the life of another being.  when people ask, i just tie it in with my other personal beliefs, like being against the death penalty or supporting labor and fair trade issues.

if they are going to eat meat they should be able to face the fact that it was an individual life, killed for them, so they can eat it.  not because they have to eat it to survive, but because they want to.  and they think it tastes good.  i wish people would just grow up and face the fact that their choices allow death, destruction, and torture.  needlessly.

I'm not a moral vegan, so I'm not sure if my opinion on this subject matters at all.

I don't think you should be ashamed of the reason you're a vegan, but I also don't think you should inflict your views onto other people. It's one thing to give your opinion, but a lot of times vegans come off as having all the answers, and sort of shoving it down other peoples throats.

I can tell you for a fact that everyone on the planet is never going to become vegan. It's just not going to happen. There's too many different cultures to take into account. I definitely think animal cruelty can be improved regardless. Maybe working on the treatment of these animals would get us further than cutting them out of our diet.

Pretty much what I'm saying is, you probably don't like when people try to convert you to their religious views (I know I don't,) trying to convert someone to being vegan is kind of on the same idea. Preachy.

If people ask for my position on dairy or meat, I give it to them along with the information that I have found. However, if they are talking about it but not looking for my opinion I make it a policy to keep myself out of it.

I'm a vegetarian for moral reasons and, yes, I'll tell people that's why if they ask me.  However, I don't try to sway, convert, or "educate" anyone.  I think that would be really insulting to them, and it gives veg*ns a bad name.  Other posters have likened the choice to be vegetarian to a religious choice, and that's how I view it when talking to other people.  I respect their choices and hope that they respect mine.  When it comes down to it, most people who aren't vegetarian just don't think that animal life is worth as much as human life.  It's just a matter of how they see the world, and not something that a preachy veg*n can change.

jblarghp,

I actually really appreciate your response.  And I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more questions.

Is there a way to get people to examine their eating habits without the pitfall of being preachy?  I know people don't like to be converted, as with religion, but there are 2 big differences I see between veg*ism and religion.  #1 is that religion is based on faith, but my reasons for being veg are based on facts.  The conditions of factory farms are not in dispute.  #2 is that there is plenty of room for grey area in veg*ism.  It's not like whether you're either a catholic or a muslim...you can be an omnivore and still be compassionate.  I don't want everyone I know to be vegan.  I wouldn't dream of it!  In fact, when I was young my parents farmed cattle and still own a portion of the family farm, so to ask them to never eat meat *would* be almost sacreligious.  All I want people to do is to acknowledge the facts and factor them into their decisions.  Maybe look at the vegetarian options on the menu before getting the bacon and eggs just out of habit.  A small change is still great in my eyes!  It's not like religion where you either convert or you don't.  Even just thinking about cutting back on consumption of animal product is good.

How can I let people know that I don't expect so much?  Is it okay to ask them just to think about it, or maybe to cut back, or is that still preaching?  Is it preaching just to let them know about some of the things that go on in slaughterhouses?

I know this is a really sensitive subject, which is why I am asking.  Is there ANYTHING I can do without ruffling feathers?  My conscience won't let me keep quiet.  I feel like I'm in that Shirley Jackson story, the Lottery.  You know it?  ...Where people are doing something terrible and I just can't stand idly by any longer.  Am I doomed to a life of being called out as a nagging harpy? 

[edited to fix weirdness]

I think my religion example came off in the wrong way. I'm aware that religions and veganism have major differences, but I was more or less talking about the way someone pushes their views on other people. This is besides the point though.

I think the best comment probably came from "skinnyogi." Telling people who want to know, and who are actually going to listen to what you're trying to say, is more than likely going to be more beneficial. There's plenty of people out there who are interested in the vegan lifestyle. These are the people that you're going to actually have an impact on.

I think trying to convert someone who isn't interested for the most part is a waste. I know for me it tends to have the opposite affect. I don't even eat meat, but when I get preached at...I want a cheeseburger. This could just be me though.

I'm an omnivore.  Blame the "Recent Posts" option for my reading this thread.  =)  But I do care quite a bit about the lives of the animals I eat.  I get my meat from local farmers who I know love and respect their animals.  And I generally have one or two vegetarian days a week and am trying to look at meat more as a condiment than as a main dish (though I have to admit that I love pork belly or a good steak).

I think you can get other omnivores to think about their choices without being preachy.  But I think your best chance for success is to appeal to qualities other than animal rights, which might be a challenge.  Remind your omni friends about how great the quality of food at local farmer's markets can be.  About how you can sometimes save quite a bit of money by buying from small, local producers, cutting out the middle man.  Replacing the meat in one meal per week with beans could save a lot of bucks in the long term.  Point them to Mark Bittman, who has a number of good arguments about eating less meat (check out his articles at New York Times, like this one http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/dining/11mi ni.html?ex=1370923200&en=8ffda17d995d2228 &ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod =permalink ).  Mark Bittman's a pretty big guy.  He's likeable.  He makes a great case.

And I suppose it's hard for a veg*n to make this argument, but if you have some omni friends who care about the animals they eat...  Animals that lived better lives end up tasting better.

edited to be clearer and less imperative

"megsambit"-Extremely good points. I think most people really do care about the treatment of animals, and that's something that everyone (regardless of their eating habits) should be working on.

"Animals that lived better lives end up tasting better"-That is amazingly wrong. Not wrong as in untrue, just wrong lol.

I don't try to convince others to give up animal products. When asked, though, I definitely explain about factory farming, including dairy farms annd battery hens (and their male chicks). And I certainly don't curb my enthusiasm when people I know take steps in a veggie direction.

I wonder, though, if message tees and tattoos are considered 'preachy.'

Its not your place to convince anyone of anything.  By interfering in other peoples lives, you are ultimatly no better than the bible thumping door knockers that come around here trying to save my soul because rumor has it that I am am GASP the "local witch".   They know I am too because all the churches talked to each other and I don't go to church in this county, so I must not go to church at all, therefore the rumor mill must be right.  I am a witch. 

Its none of your business if I eat meat or not.  Its none of your business where I get it.  I don't care if you think their slaughering methods are humane or not.  Truth is, you are the same people who hate hunters and think its better to let an animal die of starvation than it is to let hunters kill them.  I find that way of thinking very backward.   Oh we can't hurt the poor stupid cow, you have to find a nice way to kill it.  But, you can't go hunt your own food either,  starvation is more humane for wild animals.

My only answer to that, is do your research.  Plants have feelings too.  I think picking a cucumber is completely cruel.   After all its a seed pod of a plant.  You are eating its future children.  And that plant, protects itself by communicating down its long vines.  If one part is attacked by bugs, it can tell the rest of it so that it increases its defences to better protect itself.  But, its not wrong to eat a cucumber.  They after all arn't cute and cuddly. 

This is the whole point of it all.  Death is never pretty be it of natural causes or a slaughter house.  Time you get use to that.  Because its going to be a constant in everyones lives until the end of time.  And its time to realize that everything has its perspective.  I enjoying protecting plants.  My view is eat the animals so their are fewer of them here releasing all that bad gas and leave the plants so that there are more of them to release good gas and absorbe the bad.  But, thats just my view.  So I think you should start eating meat.

How does it feel? Not to pleasant huh.  Yeah I agree.  You don't try to change me.  I won't try to change you.

When my family asks me about veganism, I try not to talk about it. They say, "Well you've got to educate people! You've got to be able to tell people why!" But it's hard because it seems like anything I say, no matter how kindly, will come off as pretentious or something. I'm still trying to figure out how to talk about it.

Particularly because of people like the person who posted above me

Diet is a personal choice. I only explain my diet to people who ask.

Dear Ladykelien,

You were not invited to this post, and nothing you said was helpful at all.

You are the reason that PeTA exists.  People like you make rational, thinking people act crazy.

Since you brought it up, yes, it is my business whether you eat meat.  Just like it is my business if you dump your port-a-john in a river or drive a car with sub-standard emissions.  It's my planet and I can speak out for it if I want.

Since you also brought up how cruel it is to eat plants, I'll admit that I could compose a short novel railing against the commerical ag industry, but I will pick my battles.  Just by saying something else is bad doesn't make another thing good.

If you had taken the time to read and comprehend what I had said previously, you would see that I am not categorically opposed to the eating of meat or animal products, just the crazy, industrialized methods that we use.  You might also notice that I said I didn't want to convert everyone to veg*ism, just to encourage them to make thoughtful decisions.  Your choice to ignore my words suggests to me that you either can't think or can't listen.

I'm going to guess that the answer is that you are incapable of listening.  In that case, I would never try to "convert" you.  It would be a total waste of energy.  Some people are just too stuck in their ways and too mean to listen.

Thank you for this opportunity to rant.  I'm not usually into this sort of discussion, but the last few days have given me a lot of chances to work on my rhetorical skills.  So thanks for barging uninvited into this post to share your totally unhelpful point of view!

Oh, and thank you to everyone (besides Ladykelien) for your helpful insights.  I really do appreciate it, and believe me when I say that I will keep your perspectives in mind.  I don't know if I can swear that I won't be preachy, but I'll be thinking of your words before I speak, and I'll take them into account when I choose what to say.

Ladykelien, what's worse, Bible-thumping door knockers, or the 'local wiitch' who bursts into the church and starts ranting and raving?

I am an atheist BTW and thump no Bibles. Just trying to use an analogy since this is, you know, a thread titled 'question for moral veg*ns' in the Vegetarian forum...

So, I am a "moral vegan" given the definition = avoiding animal products because of mistreatment and because the cost of and energy put into raising a chicken is much more than that of raising a chickpea. But the moniker is ridiculously pretentious. I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated ladykelien's response (although, dude, the part about witches was out there). I have no idea how poorly the people who are picking those soybeans are treated, or if the people back in the 70's who made the clothes I bought from the thrift had health insurance. I do what I do because I have come to a conclusion based on what I know, but no matter how much I research it, my knowledge fund is inevitably going to have cavernous holes. I think it's great to talk about the "moral" decisions you've made, so long as you realize that morality is relative.

That's ladykelien's point, yeah?

i think people are paranoid when they say that giving your opinions and openly practicing a certain eating habit/religious practice/whatever is being preachy.

for example, I believe in God and am a practicing humanist and Muslim-now by saying this does that make me preachy? sure i think it would be just peachy and delighful if everyone saw things as I do, and when I talk/act/walk/woship/anything, it's obvious I have a particular belief and a concrete stance on life and so on-but does that make me preachy?

one of my good friends and co-workers is a moral vegan, and she openly tells us what she thinks about the killing and comsumption of animals, and i openly tell other co-workers what I think about the killing and consumption of human values and morals, and we all just get along! maybe it's because we're candian, eh! lol

either way, live your life how you see fit, respectfully and lovingly, and forget all da hype!

oh and ps: I'MMMM open-minded enough to allow other people to express their opinions about this world and life. if the person has good people skills, is patient and humble, then I will happily listen and contemplate as their info may just be useful to the path i'm on.

Original Post by ladykelien:

My only answer to that, is do your research.  Plants have feelings too.  I think picking a cucumber is completely cruel.   After all its a seed pod of a plant.  You are eating its future children.  And that plant, protects itself by communicating down its long vines.  If one part is attacked by bugs, it can tell the rest of it so that it increases its defences to better protect itself.  But, its not wrong to eat a cucumber.  They after all arn't cute and cuddly.

Yes, please- do your research. There's a reason why plants are pretty, it's so they'll be seen as attractive & eaten. Back in "prehistoric times" humans used holes in the ground in the place of modern luxuries like toilets. After eating something with seeds in it and then burying it in the ground along with poo aka all natural fertilizer, a new plant is sure to grow! Plus we've all heard stories of someone vomiting watermelon or pumpkin and a patch of whatever they ralphed mysteriously growing in that spot a few months later. Not that big of a surprise. And, of course, animals don't bury what they leave behind, but seriously, that watermelon puke patch in my backyard as a kid was actually from the family dog. If fruit just falls off the plant/tree and rots, usually nothing new will grow, right? Well, nature found another way... Anyways, enough gross-ness. The point is you're right about the fruit being the pod for it's seeds. The reason for that and the reason why it's pretty and tasty is so that animals, including humans, and insects can help the plant live on. Even poisonous plants are pretty and sometimes tasty for that same reason. Remember 7th grade biology class? Fruitarians make the rather convincing claim that fruit, beans/legumes, seeds (duh) and nuts are the only things that should be eaten since it's part of the aforementioned natural cycle. They say that since the pretty, tasty fruit is the plant's survival mechanism, it can and should be eaten. (I wonder if they all bury their poo though... just kidding!)The leaves and the stems sustain life for the plant, as do the roots and should be left alone, according to fruitarians that is. I'm vegan for environmental reasons so I eat organic plant foods of all kinds. Scoff all you want, but those fruitarians do have a point....

And getting back to the original point, I'm lucky enough to live in Portland,OR *big smile* and don't have to explain myself daily. My family is very supportive because they get it and some are vegan as well (again, lucky me). But when asked by old college buddies or whomever why I chose this lifestyle, I'll give them a brief yet concise answer. I want to scream about the depleted oceans, but I don't. However, if they ask for more details, then yeah, I'll gladly scream about factory farms because hey, they asked for it.

I was vegetarian for many years and recently took the next step by going vegan. Personally it was one of the best choices I've ever made, but few of my friends/family agree with me. I actually have no vegetarian friends, which makes justifying being vegan very hard. They think 'vegan' is just another word for anorexic. When I first made the change I tried to educate them about the benefits and ethics behind my decision but I was completely ignored, so I gave up.

Nowdays I try not to mention my veganism, not because I'm ashamed of it but because I'm sick of trying to justify it to people who aren't ready to accept new ideas. Sometimes it fustrates me to see them choking down their double bacon sarnie/cheese fries and then complain about their energy levels, but I've learnt to hold my tongue. I don't preach.

I am also guilty of saying 'for health' when asked why I am vegan, when I am just as much for the ethical side of things. I hate that I feel I can't express my opinion without being attacked or laughed at, but that is the world we unfortunately live in today.