Question for people who don't live in the US...

bombacho's post in the September 11th thread got me thinking, and I'm curious about how people not from the US feel about 9/11 and the events that followed. Did you or people in your country think what the US was doing was justified? Were they being irrational?  Do you think the US government has become the terrorists?

I didn't really get Bombacho's comment.  The one about Pinochet.  I know what he did and how bad it was (I had relatives in Chile for many years) but I didn't get the relevance to 9/11.

When I saw the news that day, I was home with two small children.  My daughter was three and she remembers, probably because of my reaction.  I cried.

As for the fabrication for the war.  No, I have never agreed with what happened there, but many in my small Canadian town believed Bush was doing the right thing.  Of course they were proved wrong.

As for the US government being terrorists?  I believe the government of your country has been practicing terrorism for a few hundred years now.

Original Post by hayleymajayley:

bombacho's post in the September 11th thread got me thinking, and I'm curious about how people not from the US feel about 9/11 and the events that followed. Did you or people in your country think what the US was doing was justified? Were they being irrational?  Do you think the US government has become the terrorists?

Most people in my country seemed to share the same opinions as I did... although of course there will be opposing views I was with the majority opinion I am sure. No, I did not think what the US was doing was justified. Yes, it was irrational. Yes, the US government can easily be considered terrorists - but they have been so for decades at least so nothing new there.

I think that what happened on September 11th was very sad, and I definitely see why the government sought to take action. I don't agree with the war, or the steps that were taken to "justify" it. It is quite obvious now that there were ulterior motives to the war in the Middle East, but I don't like how people try to label "Americans" as the bad ones. A country's government may represent it's people, but it does not necessarily follow their wishes

As for whether the government has become the terrorists...name one government that hasn't committed some atrocity. I'm from Canada, and our history is by no means pretty, despite the way people would like it to be interpreted. I don't think that justifies anything that has been done (ie: residential schools, chinese head tax, etc.), but I do think that people have a tendency to judge an entire populace based on their representative group. Power corrupts, and people abuse that power. It's a simple fact with grave consequences.

Original Post by mogochud:

As for whether the government has become the terrorists...name one government that hasn't committed some atrocity.

Yes, but given the US has so much power they have committed so many atrocities; it is not like their war-mongering is a one-off.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2002/US-Peace ful-Nation.htm

It's really sad, because I don't think a lot of Americans know what the government is doing a lot of the time... The news here is pretty biased from what I've heard.  We're all taught that America's great and we help out other countries and hunt down the bad guys and win the wars and everybody loves us (cuz that's really how it is, right?)

I don't agree with the war, I don't think the reaction to 9/11 was justified, and even from what little I know about what our government has done I can easily see how other people think our government is kinda terrorist-y.

 ETA: Thanks for the link, meryl.  It's so true, in school they teach us we're the boy scouts of the world, helping out neighboring countries.

All of this America bashing is really making me sick.  If we are sooooo bad, then why do all these people from OTHER countries want to live here?  We have all kinds of foreigners living here ---- Indian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Russian, the list goes on. 

OF COURSE we were justified in going after someone who bombed our buildings in the middle of NY!!!  What are we supposed to do... say "hey - come bomb the rest of our buildings - we got lots".??

Original Post by yogagirl6853:

All of this America bashing is really making me sick.  If we are sooooo bad, then why do all these people from OTHER countries want to live here?  We have all kinds of foreigners living here ---- Indian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Russian, the list goes on. 

OF COURSE we were justified in going after someone who bombed our buildings in the middle of NY!!!  What are we supposed to do... say "hey - come bomb the rest of our buildings - we got lots".??

 

I think I agree, I was only 13 when the attack happened but definitely remember thinking the war was totally justified. These were horrific attacks on a CIVILIAN population and wars have been started for a lot less (WORLD WAR ONE!!).

I also think a LOT of people have jumped onto the 'war is so bad, i can't believe they did that' bandwagon, this is completely ridiculous and really irritates me. I mean, if the amount of people who are now claiming they didn't want to go to war had spoken up back then, then surely both the American and UK governments wouldn't have been able to force it?! Perhaps as well as blaming 'the government', you should take a look at your own actions, or lack thereof.

I know it turned into a quagmire and in hindsight I do recognise that it wasn't perhaps the best strategy, but what would the world be like if Saddam Hussein was still in power? Ultimately, politicians and people in general aren't anywhere near perfect, but in the aftermath of Sept 11th, what other option was there for the Bush administration, but to declare war?

Original Post by cassie_bee:

Original Post by yogagirl6853:

All of this America bashing is really making me sick.  If we are sooooo bad, then why do all these people from OTHER countries want to live here?  We have all kinds of foreigners living here ---- Indian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Russian, the list goes on. 

OF COURSE we were justified in going after someone who bombed our buildings in the middle of NY!!!  What are we supposed to do... say "hey - come bomb the rest of our buildings - we got lots".??

 

I think I agree, I was only 13 when the attack happened but definitely remember thinking the war was totally justified. These were horrific attacks on a CIVILIAN population and wars have been started for a lot less (WORLD WAR ONE!!).

I also think a LOT of people have jumped onto the 'war is so bad, i can't believe they did that' bandwagon, this is completely ridiculous and really irritates me. I mean, if the amount of people who are now claiming they didn't want to go to war had spoken up back then, then surely both the American and UK governments wouldn't have been able to force it?! Perhaps as well as blaming 'the government', you should take a look at your own actions, or lack thereof.

I know it turned into a quagmire and in hindsight I do recognise that it wasn't perhaps the best strategy, but what would the world be like if Saddam Hussein was still in power? Ultimately, politicians and people in general aren't anywhere near perfect, but in the aftermath of Sept 11th, what other option was there for the Bush administration, but to declare war?

It's hindsight only insofar as the fact that the reasons that we were given to go to war were lies.  That's right, LIES.  Iraq was not connected in any way to what happened on September 11th.  No link whatsoever.  They didn't have weapons of mass destruction.  It was lies that got us into a pointless war, and THAT is why the rest of the world is angry with America.  That is why many citizens are angry with their own country.  I don't like to be lied to.  I don't think it is anti-American to disagree with the government's actions, especially when they justified going to war on the basis of LIES.  They cherry-picked the intelligence they wanted so that they could have an EXCUSE to go to war in Iraq.  It is complete joke to say that the US HAD to go to war in Iraq because of September 11th. 

Original Post by rosieblue:

I didn't really get Bombacho's comment.  The one about Pinochet.  I know what he did and how bad it was (I had relatives in Chile for many years) but I didn't get the relevance to 9/11.

I believe the relevance of Bombacho's comment was to point out that other tragic things also happened on 9/11 - namely, the coup led by Pinochet in Chile on the 9/11/1973.  His point probably was that 9/11 means different things to people from different countries.

For example, in Argentina - where I am from - it is "teacher appreciation day." A lot of people also spend time remembering the tragic events in Chile, where the military bombed the presidential palace in order to, supposedly, save the country from being taken over by "subversives" (a complete untruth).

Many other things could be said about that, but just to clarify - I think that was the point of Bombacho's comment.

Original Post by yogagirl6853:

All of this America bashing is really making me sick.  If we are sooooo bad, then why do all these people from OTHER countries want to live here?  We have all kinds of foreigners living here ---- Indian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Russian, the list goes on. 

As a foreigner who has chosen to live in the United States, I can honestly say that my decision to live here has more to do with the opportunities this country affords its citizens - i.e., economics - than political/cultural reasons. 

I don't assume to speak for any other permanent residents/naturalized citizens/immigrants.  However, knowing MANY of them and being very active in my local immigrant community, I can tell you that nearly EVERY ONE (at least those coming from developing nations) would much rather be in their home country earning a living and feeling rewarded for their work than having to have left their cultures behind.  Has nothing to do with the US being "good" or "bad", it is more a matter of necessity.

I think the choice of many of us to live in this country has to do with the economic stability it provides vis-a-vis our country of origin (even in circumstances as the economy in which we are now living - things here are never as bad as they are in developing countries.)

I'm an American, but feel the need to react.  I opposed the war, as did a lot of others.  It certainly appeared that diplomacy had not run its course. 

Unfortunately, like so many instances world wide and throughout history, propaganda and fear prevent people from thinking rationally. Not to mention the unbelievable complacency that exists in the US today. 

However, I think there is a general sense  that we want to do what is right; the majority voted for change. People are now speaking out about Afghanistan and the government appears to be listening, somewhat.

The founding principles and ideals of America are noble and  I'm insulted when someone calls my government "terrorists."  We the people make up our government. 

America has done much good in our short history, but that good is overshadowed by our wrongs. I accept the world's criticism of US actions, but I find being called a "terrorist" a tough pill to swallow. 

The founding principles and ideals of America are noble and  I'm insulted when someone calls my government "terrorists."  We the people make up our government. 

America has done much good in our short history, but that good is overshadowed by our wrongs. I accept the world's criticism of US actions, but I find being called a "terrorist" a tough pill to swallow. 

I agree.  I believe that, by and large, most people in other countries do not consider the US government to be "terrorist".  I think that many do take issue with what others have said before: the lack of evidence that took the US into war, and what is seen as trying to impose US views upon others through "invasion" (for lack of a better term).  That is not to say that some in other nations who are left leaning do not qualify the US as a "terrorist" government -- they do.  BUT they are not in the majority, I don't think.  The view is a more extreme one, rather than the mainstream.

I also think that the change in the Administration has done a lot to reduce tension and the antagonistic feeling that foreign governments/nations had toward the US.

I do agree with you, however: it is tough and utterly unfair to call the US government terrorist.  Mistaken as the actions were and misled as the American people were by their leaders (lack of evidence for the war) I do not think the intention/motive was in any way close to what actual terrorists have in mind.

Original Post by yogagirl6853:

All of this America bashing is really making me sick.  If we are sooooo bad, then why do all these people from OTHER countries want to live here?  We have all kinds of foreigners living here ---- Indian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Russian, the list goes on. 

OF COURSE we were justified in going after someone who bombed our buildings in the middle of NY!!!  What are we supposed to do... say "hey - come bomb the rest of our buildings - we got lots".??

 

well, attitudes like that are exactly the reason why america's reputation is damaged. saddam hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, didn't even have any weapons of mass destruction, so no, you were not justified to start that war. all the offical reasons were nothing but lies, there was no reasonable strategy what to do AFTER american soldiers went into baghdad and tore saddam's statue down, and now iraq's just a big mess, a country that's slowly beginning to recover.

however, no one is BASHING the united states. it was criticized and for a reason. also, the U.S. isn't the only country in the world people emigrate to. i live in germany, and we have lots of foreigners too, as do a lot of other european countries. that doesn't make me think "wow we're so great, everybody wants to live here!" it just shows that there are countries where life is A LOT worse. and i find the term "foreigner" strange. the U.S. is a country defined by immigrants from all over the world. you were all "foreigners" at some point, some just arrived earlier, others later.

Original Post by yogagirl6853:

 

OF COURSE we were justified in going after someone who bombed our buildings in the middle of NY!!!  What are we supposed to do... say "hey - come bomb the rest of our buildings - we got lots".??

 

Except for the fact that Iraq didn't bomb our buildings. So why did we attack them again? Hmm makes no sense does it.

Original Post by yogagirl6853:

All of this America bashing is really making me sick.  If we are sooooo bad, then why do all these people from OTHER countries want to live here?  We have all kinds of foreigners living here ---- Indian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, Russian, the list goes on. 

OF COURSE we were justified in going after someone who bombed our buildings in the middle of NY!!!  What are we supposed to do... say "hey - come bomb the rest of our buildings - we got lots".??

Ever heard the phrase "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"?

It seems odd to me that you can condemn the attacks on your country and yet totally condone the US invading a country which was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Double standard?!

My country has all kinds of immigrants too. So do most countries on Earth! Doesn't make one country any better than another, it just means some countries probably have more job opportunities or a better standard of living. It does not make a country any less culpable for its actions overseas.

Original Post by cassie_bee:

I think I agree, I was only 13 when the attack happened but definitely remember thinking the war was totally justified. These were horrific attacks on a CIVILIAN population and wars have been started for a lot less (WORLD WAR ONE!!).

I also think a LOT of people have jumped onto the 'war is so bad, i can't believe they did that' bandwagon, this is completely ridiculous and really irritates me. I mean, if the amount of people who are now claiming they didn't want to go to war had spoken up back then, then surely both the American and UK governments wouldn't have been able to force it?! Perhaps as well as blaming 'the government', you should take a look at your own actions, or lack thereof.

In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of the world's nations weren't exactly lining up to go to war with the US. I suspect nations who were involved did so out of hope to gain economically from closer ties with the US, not from agreement with the cause. Yes, the people killed in 9/11 were civilians. So were the vast majority of Iraqis who were killed for no good reason afterward.

You have no idea when you are talking about when you say that "if more people had spoken up, the UK and US would not have been able to go to war." Since when? The power of those two nations combined is enough to go to war for any reason, law be damned.

The United States frequently flouts conventions of international law which the country has already ratified... a few examples:

• Use of torture and lack of right to legal representation in Guantanamo Bay
• Torture and prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq
• Invading Iraq without the endorsement of the United Nations
• Non-compliance with the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty
• Non-compliance with the Biological Weapons Convention up until the end of the 1990's - weaponising anthrax and producing biological test bombs
• Non-compliance with the Chemical Weapons Convention (refusal to allow international inspections)
• 11 weeks of bombings in the former Yugoslavia by NATO which were inconsistent with the UN resolutions 1160 and 1199 and did not have the backing of the UN.
• Dubious cases of non-intervention during genocide despite this being part of the Geneva Convention (Darfur, anyone?)

In addition, the US refuses to even ratify many international laws such as the Convention on Discrimination Against Women and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. While I personally DID speak up against the US war - and was part of global protests at the time - there is no stopping a nation which behaves like global consensus is irrelevent.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/images/pdfs/exesu mmary.pdf

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content /article/154/26665.html

Original Post by cc31:

I agree.  I believe that, by and large, most people in other countries do not consider the US government to be "terrorist".  I think that many do take issue with what others have said before: the lack of evidence that took the US into war, and what is seen as trying to impose US views upon others through "invasion" (for lack of a better term).  That is not to say that some in other nations who are left leaning do not qualify the US as a "terrorist" government -- they do.  BUT they are not in the majority, I don't think.  The view is a more extreme one, rather than the mainstream.

I also think that the change in the Administration has done a lot to reduce tension and the antagonistic feeling that foreign governments/nations had toward the US.

Outside of the Western world I believe (and in my experience have found) that plenty of people think of the previous US administrations as perpetrating terrorist acts. Torture, detainment without trial, bombings labelled as peacekeeping operations, unprovoked invasions, funding of wars in strategic locations (Israel), flouting agreements not to produce chemical, biological and nuclear weapons; refusal to ban land mines... If these acts were committed by a different nation we would all be quick to label them terrorists. Even without the emotive term 'terrorist', global opinion of the US has certainly not been favourable. The following survey is two years old but still provides a lot of insight as to global opinion of US and the Iraq war.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articl es/international_security_bt/306.php?nid=& ;id=&pnt=306&lb=btvoc

With this said, I am sure global opinion has improved markedly with the election of Obama. Anything would be better than Bush.

Original Post by luzd:

We the people make up our government. 

That may be, but you didn't vote the previous one in.

Original Post by merylwhite1:

With this said, I am sure global opinion has improved markedly with the election of Obama. Anything would be better than Bush.

here here!! :D

i totally agree with zimtsticker and meryl. good points ladies. we (americans) are not all that but we certainly act like we are.

The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities will be the first international human rights treaty signed by the United States in nearly a decade.

Human Rights Watch united states home page - scroll down for HRW reports on US domestic and foreign policy.

...

and please! we invaded afghanistan first!

Afghan Women's Mission

Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan