Question about race

This came up in a different topic, and I wanted to get your opinion.

I am confused about why certain things are considered racist or wrong. For example, in another thread, I complained how Hispanic/Latino/Spanish-speaking (which is politically correct? People here say hispanic..) men were not courteous in that they stared at women, "undressing" them with their eyes. They look at me and any other younger woman like that.

Another girl in the thread also complained how men rudely stare at her in her country. Yet I got flamed because I was complaining about Hispanics, when I am not Hispanic. The other girl was the same ethnicity as the men she was complaining about, so for that reason, she did not get flamed.

If that example was confusing, it is similar to how African American people can say the "N" word but no one else can.

Don't get me wrong. I am white, or German. I have had people say white jokes, or say something like, "Oh, you're German, so you must be a Nazi," all the time. But I don't get offended.

My main question: Why is it okay to say negative things about your own race, but not okay to say negative things about other people's races?

Are you from Germany or of German descent? I hardly see how they're the same.

To answer your question, are you wanting to go on a rampage with racist jokes? I'm not sure why you're even concerned about it. It's the same as you making fun of yourself for something but obviously it hurts if someone else does it. 

The sheeple don't understand the difference between observing trends (such as the eye-undressing you mentioned, and yes, I've observed it too) and stereotyping (assuming that an individual who belongs to a group necessarily displays the same behaviors as the group as a whole).

Example.  One in ten American Indian deaths is alcohol related.  There is nothing racist about that observation.  Assuming that any particular american indian you meet has an alcohol problem, however, would stereotype that person based on his/her race and would be not only not nice, but not logically sound.

So you want to say negative things about a race other than your own, without offending the race in which you are targeting? I'm confused? I read the post in which you are referring to and I think that you could of made your point without reference to a particular race. I didn't find it racist but I can see how someone can take offense.

When you make a blanket statement about an entire ethnic group based on your experiences, you are stereotyping them. Even if you did not mean it to be offensive, it might be more appropriate (and received better) to say something like, "In my experience...".

I also think its important to note why you feel that only Hispanic men "undress women with their eyes". In my experience, its been men of various ethnic groups that do this. 

I didn't read your original post, but I think it's probably in how it's said and how it's meant. 

If you were to say something like "I have observed quite a few hispanic men who like to stare and leer at women", then I see nothing wrong with that statement.  It's just your personal observation, and we are all entitled to our observations.  I don't believe that statement should be seen as racist.  It's not like you are saying that only hispanic men leer at women  And it's not like you are saying that all hispanic men leer at women.  Now, if you were to say something like "well based on my observations then all hispanics are like that", then that's stereotyping and I can see how it might be seen as racist.

You are not going to get the answer you want, because no answer exists.

This is what society dictates.

Maybe if Wanda Sykes spent her time doing more infomercials about how it is wrong for a black woman to call some white person a cracker the world would be a better place.

Original Post by muttlover:

My main question: Why is it okay to say negative things about your own race, but not okay to say negative things about other people's races?

It's because we're social creatures.  We can identify ourself with a particular group.... race, nationality, political leaning, gender, religious persuasion, sexual orientation.... and be self-deprecating and observe the behaviour of 'the group'. But someone outside that group making the same comment is simply throwing an insult.

However, I think there are lines that can't be crossed whether you're in the group or not.   And to say 'it's OK, I can say that because I'm talking about my own kind'.... doesn't always wash. 

If that example was confusing, it is similar to how African American people can say the "N" word but no one else can.

The meaning behind and the way african americans use the N word amongst and to each other is completely different than how white people say and mean it. There are very few white people who can say the word amongst their black friends and not be offensive. It is the history of the word. The word was born of hate and is bathed in blood.

I dislike the term 'sheeple'. We are a society, with trends in thinking. It's sort of how we're made. To disparage our society for that is akin to blaming people for choosing sides in a political campaign.

I'm the one who asked about it. Nothing to do with being "sheeple" like the conservatives here suggest. It's just something I've noticed in quite a number of your posts, that whatever issues you're having with people, you invariably bring up that they are Hispanics, and I wonder why that's so relevant?

The girl who brought up the Egyptian mens' behavior, by contrast, didn't even state at first exactly what country she was in. Though it actually kind of proved my point, that this kind of behavior isn't the sole province of Hispanic men.

EDIT TO ADD- muttlover, I did see just now on the other thread that you apologized for it, and I do appreciate that.

Yeah what everyone else said.

But also it's one of the same reasons why I am very careful about what I say about 1 or 2 of my husband's relatives, no matter what I hear him say about them.

Original Post by gi-jane:

Original Post by muttlover:

My main question: Why is it okay to say negative things about your own race, but not okay to say negative things about other people's races?

 

It's because we're social creatures.  We can identify ourself with a particular group.... race, nationality, political leaning, gender, religious persuasion, sexual orientation.... and be self-deprecating and observe the behaviour of 'the group'. But someone outside that group making the same comment is simply throwing an insult.

 

 

This. It's kind of like how you can complain about your own family as much as you like, but if someone else says something bad about them you jump to their defence. 

I am getting a lot of different answers. As kdh said, I probably won't get the answer I "want," or a even a definite one, because we all have different opinions.

But I have seen more than one of you say that if you are apart of a group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's fine. However, if you are not apart of that group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's not fine.

But isn't that in itself... I don't want to say racist, but not racially equal? I'm sorry, I can't think of the word/phrase I'm wanting to say here...

As a member put it in a question I placed last week. "We are Human" You will not get your answer because we do think in the groups we are most comfortable and when someone goes against that you will get a slap in the hand.

Nieto

Original Post by muttlover:

I am getting a lot of different answers. As kdh said, I probably won't get the answer I "want," or a even a definite one, because we all have different opinions.

But I have seen more than one of you say that if you are apart of a group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's fine. However, if you are not apart of that group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's not fine.

But isn't that in itself... I don't want to say racist, but not racially equal? I'm sorry, I can't think of the word/phrase I'm wanting to say here...

As far as the "racially equal" thing goes, I don't think you're getting what people are saying.   I like the example that one of the above posters used: it's like how you can complain about your family and make fun of them all you want to, but if a non-family member were to say the same thing, it can be construed as an insult.   I think it's assumed that there's an implicit understanding that within a family, a group of friends or in this case within an ethnic group, there is love and understanding behind jokes and/or criticisms. 

For example, if I call my mother overbearing, she might be annoyed at me, but she knows that I know that she's overbearing out of love and her desire to see me do well.  I love her, and so while I joke or criticize, at the end of the day, the motive behind it isn't malicious or hateful.  If my boyfriend were to say the same thing, I'd wonder if he had a problem with my mother.  It would seem like a bit of an attack on her character because I don't know where he's coming from with his criticism.

I think the potential to offend comes from the fact that people don't know where your statements are coming from: hate and disdain or semi-joking understanding. 

And for the record, I don't let anyone call me the "N" word, nor would I ever use it.

Original Post by muttlover:

I am getting a lot of different answers. As kdh said, I probably won't get the answer I "want," or a even a definite one, because we all have different opinions.

But I have seen more than one of you say that if you are apart of a group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's fine. However, if you are not apart of that group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's not fine.

But isn't that in itself... I don't want to say racist, but not racially equal? I'm sorry, I can't think of the word/phrase I'm wanting to say here...

The word you are looking for is "hypocritical."  And yes, it is. 

I don't see anything wrong in what you said you aren't being any more stereotypical than the other girl is for the simple reason you don't know the names of the guys you have seen leering at women so you and her did what everyone does and use a descriptive word to enlighten people about who you are talking about.

It's over sensitivity and PC gone daft I have had this argument before that only whites can be racist and it annoys me no end!

I used to work with a girl from south africa and she had more issues about her colour than any white person had about it...

You had to tiptoe around her otherwise it was "it's because I'm black isn't it!" this became so dull that If she said anything against Scotland or whites I retorted "it's because we are white isn't it!" she soon started to see the point I was making. I use that phrase quite a lot now if I got flamed for daring to make a comment about another ethnic group I retort with it.

People need to realize that to be racist in the actual meaning of the word you have to have a hostile attitude or behaviour to members of another race, based on a belief in the innate superiority of one's own race.

well...

I am the Egyptian girl she is talking about...and it is not really okay that I talked about the barbarism of Egyptian men on the streets...I am called a traitor and a whore in my country for--pretty simply--having pride in not going with the flow and saying yeah,it is okay..you are the boss..whatever you like..

'Cause it is not who I am...

so if you think it is fine for me,it is not...it never is...but it is what I believe is true...and it is what I encounter every day of my life...it is what I have to put up with and have to keep my mouth shut about...but I will step up and say something about it...it is not okay.It is not.

Who is being hypocritical, lys?

Original Post by muttlover:

But I have seen more than one of you say that if you are apart of a group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's fine. However, if you are not apart of that group and say a joke/generalized statement about them, it's not fine.

But isn't that in itself... I don't want to say racist, but not racially equal? I'm sorry, I can't think of the word/phrase I'm wanting to say here...

It's human nature & nothing to do with racial equality.  Shared identity of all kinds gives people freedom to speak in a lighthearted manner amongst themselves.   People who don't share the identity don't have that freedom.  And even people who do share the same identity can't assume anything.

Some disabled people I know will jokily refer to themselves as 'crips' (short for cripples in case it's not obvious).... but I'd never refer to a disabled person as a cripple because it's not a particularly nice word.... and I'm sure there are plenty of people with disabilities that don't like the word either.

So when making statements that involve a particular nationality (or group of any kind) simply avoid lazy stereotypes and cliches.... it's just common sense and politeness at work.