question re: building muscles at a deficit

If I am on atkins, it doesn't have carbs to burn, and essentially forces my body to burn up its fat stores.

Aren't those sources of energy/calories?

Why wouldn't it be possible to grow muscles, if they are using the fat for fuel?

Technically you aren't putting more calories in, but isn't it burning the calories you've STORED FOR soooo long???

Isn't that the whole point of a deficit? Burn the calories stored?

I am finding it difficult to believe you'd have to actually eat more to make muscle.

PS I am not on atkins

As long as you eat right you can build muscle with a deficit. stay in a target to lose, 500-700 less calories per day than you burn. Don't go to low and get plenty of protein. I have dropped 32 lbs since November and added allot of muscle. I would have lost more just doing cardio but I want to gain muscle.

I now squat over 300 lbs dead lift over 300 and do one body part per day with weights always pushing to go heavier. I am buiding muscle and losing weight.

about 15 to hit my target weight than will see if that is what I want and maybe shoot for 10 more.

Warning: nerd talk ahead:

Yeah, but now we're off into the weeds of biochemistry, because elevated rates of muscle protein synthesis necessary for muscle growth depends on the hormone signal from mTOR which is close to nonexistent in a calorie deficit(nutrient deprivation.

 That's compounded by the effects of AMPK on protein synthesis - AMPK inhibits mTOR, and the ghrelin/leptin signalling from dieting increases AMPK activation in the brain so the upshot is that while dieting muscular protein synthesis is inhibited.

 This doesn't apply to severely obese individuals who have a lot of abnormal things going on with their ghrelin/leptin signalling axis that means the protein synthesis isn't as energy-sensitive at body fat levels above 30%, so having severe obesity means you can build fairly significant muscle even in severe calorie deficits. I don't think i'd want to go that route though.

 Thing is, as you can red more about in a couple threads in the FAQ ( Why can't this extra fat be used to build my muscles? and Gaining muscle while dieting) just about all the biochemical processes involved in fat loss are in direct opposition to the proceses involved in muscle gain, so while you have a hormonal environment that results in one you don't have the other, assuming a non-distorted and non-drug-using metabolism.

 You can get significantly stronger even in a calorie deficit since strength is at least partially a function of neural efficiency.

 There's also a few exceptions to the rule - complete beginners can and do gain muscle mass in a calorie deficit in the first few weeks of working out, and there's also a few genetic supermen/women whose bodies just work differently. To the best of my knowledge there's three men and one woman out of the 1.4 million users here on CC that comes under this exception though, so it's not really something you can count on.

Thank you! I'm going to reread #2 about 50 times and see if it helps, but I get what you're saying essentially.

New (possibly stupid) Q: Is getting stronger different than building muscle? I can't scroll up from this window to look and see what exactly you said that made me want to ask that Q (I got interrupted after I hit reply!)

Original Post by crazydiamondchrysalis:

New (possibly stupid) Q: Is getting stronger different than building muscle? I can't scroll up from this window to look and see what exactly you said that made me want to ask that Q (I got interrupted after I hit reply!)

Yes, it's different - you can increase the amount you can lift dramatically, without increasing muscle mass.

Original Post by amethystgirl:

Original Post by crazydiamondchrysalis:

New (possibly stupid) Q: Is getting stronger different than building muscle? I can't scroll up from this window to look and see what exactly you said that made me want to ask that Q (I got interrupted after I hit reply!)

Yes, it's different - you can increase the amount you can lift dramatically, without increasing muscle mass.

 Well heck, that's all I really want to do anyway!!! :D

Thanks again for the links... I'm not through all of it yet but VERY interesting!!!

There's two different components to strength - building larger, more powerful muscle fibers (myofibrillar hypertrophy), building more of them (myofibrillar hyperplasia) which is what muscle growth is about. That's the engine part, and getting stronger through building a bigger engine is the bit that requires a calorie surplus for the nutrient signalling in the above sequence.

 The second part is the neural component - your nervous system fires a motor unit and a cluster of muscle fibers contract in response. The more motor units you can recruit at once the more of your existing muscle you're using - and the more you can fire those motor units at the same split-second, the higher your peak power output at that precise moment is. Neural factors don't require a calorie surplus, they depend on very different mechanisms - so they work even in a calorie deficit.

 So if you can fine-tune the ignition system(neural factors, motor unit recruitment, motor unit coordination) for the engine(muscle fibres) you can use your existing muscle mass a lot more efficiently to generate peak power - which translates to being stronger.

<3 Melkor!  I almost understood that the first time through.

Melkor... Latin for "unable to give the simple answer"

Original Post by amethystgirl:

Melkor... Latin for "unable to give the simple answer"

Quite possibly true, yes ;)

Original Post by amethystgirl:

Melkor... Latin for "unable to give the simple answer"

 Maybe so.. but I like the details!

You know, every time I read one of these muscle-building threads, I just get more confused. I just hope that I've digested enough facts from these threads to reach my goals.

Wow-I think that the muscle building group on Calorie Count will eventually take over the world

Original Post by future214:

Wow-I think that the muscle building group on Calorie Count will eventually take over the world

Mwa-haha.... but don't tell everyone our evil plan....

cdc - I like the details too. Although sometimes, even if I'm pretty sure I know which side of the debate he's coming down on, I'm still not sure what it all means! I love it though. He's taught me a lot more than I ever thought I know about how the body works.

Ok so if you are not gaining muscle on a deficit then could someone please explain how you can loose inches and not loose weight?

Original Post by triffid2002:

Ok so if you are not gaining muscle on a deficit then could someone please explain how you can loose inches and not loose weight?

 Increased glycogen stores in the muscles.

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by triffid2002:

Ok so if you are not gaining muscle on a deficit then could someone please explain how you can loose inches and not loose weight?

 Increased glycogen stores in the muscles.

 where do I get the geeked version of this answer? :D

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by triffid2002:

Ok so if you are not gaining muscle on a deficit then could someone please explain how you can loose inches and not loose weight?

 Increased glycogen stores in the muscles.

So I think you are saying that I am loosing fat which is why I lost inches and that the reason that I have not lost weight is that my muscles are retaining more glycogen.  In my case, while eating a deficit, I lost 2 inches around my waist and gained a half inch around my upper arm but my weight is the same. (5'8", 142lbs, small frame, 24yrs, female, eating 1300cals)

"I almost understood that the first time through"

there's a first for everything and I understood it too.  $2 words and all.    Now I understand why I'm continuing to get stronger without gaining weight.  My muscles are a lot more visible now, even though I'm maintaining my weight.  I must be still burning fat while protecting my muscles. 

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by triffid2002:

Ok so if you are not gaining muscle on a deficit then could someone please explain how you can loose inches and not loose weight?

 Increased glycogen stores in the muscles.

 Won't the glycogen make you bulky?

Original Post by crazydiamondchrysalis:

Original Post by floggingsully:

Original Post by triffid2002:

Ok so if you are not gaining muscle on a deficit then could someone please explain how you can loose inches and not loose weight?

 Increased glycogen stores in the muscles.

 where do I get the geeked version of this answer? :D

 Wait for melkor