Questions on "Real Fast Fat Loss" Exercise Program (T-nation)

(Edited to clarify title)

I have been following the Real Fast Fat Loss program since ... well, since I first came across it in one of melkor's posts. I am supposed to do Day 5 today so I am not that far into it, but this is the closest I've come to consistency with an exercise program on my own (not as easy as with classes! but I feel I get a better workout. Of course, the efficiency vs motivation tradeoff is a different story)

Anyway, my questions: 

1. After just about every workout I feel a tightness in my shoulder/tricep/serratus, that makes it difficult to stretch my arms up overhead. Other muscles are sore to varying degrees, but this is the most noticeable. Is this a temporary tightness as the muscles repair, or am I losing some sort of flexibility?

2. I am not in a consistent caloric deficit. I am trying to eat about maintenance. I am also not logging food or exercise, so am not sure if these workouts are putting me in a deficit, but ... will I still see results, just not as fast?

3. Along the same lines, I know some people measure themselves weekly. Does the tape measure really change over that short a time, and are the changes meaningful (ie not just fluctuations)?

Thanks in advance :)

hi flower - a few things and note - i did not follow the T-nation plan religiously but added items of it to my workouts which were similar to it when i started back in Sept -

i went from 26% body fat down to 18% bodyfat in about 6-8 weeks using a program that combined several muscle gain & fat loss strategies - i am a heavy lifter so to speak when i am not cycling to a lean out phase - here's what i can tell you so far -

1. Are you stretching well? I lift my arm above/behind my head and lean my elbow into a wall to get maximum stretch in my triceps/upper back/scapula area - it HELPS a lot before i lift! also - watch your form - it's KEY - is your back straight or curved - when on a bench and doing pull downs - are your feet pointed straight - etc, etc... just make sure you have the right form for the right lifting- it will help. Also, seriously go slow in the training- let your body adapt to the weights not the weights adapt to you! if you go too hard too fast, your seriously just risking injury with bad form, over compensation /use of wrong muscle groups for an exercise, or frustration with soreness! go slow and steady - once you have serious core /body strength - start bulking up - but learn what to do for your own body and then go/grow from there!

2. calorie wise- keep track- it makes sense - at least if you see progress you know what days you ate what and it helped to get you through a work out or see muscle mass gain/fat loss. seriously - just track it - you will want a record of what you did that worked! if you are in a loss mode- i'll tell you this- i gained serious muslce with low cal deficiets sometimes -1500 - -2000 between exercise and food, but - i was not seeing fat loss!? until i had my body fat checked again - then i did see it? so - not sure here- but i would eat enough to compensate for the amount of working out you do and have a deficiet of around 500-1000 a day to see fat loss! Make sure you eat a lot of protein and no crappy white foods or fats! any lifter will tell you protein protein protein to build/repair muscle- high carbs just convert to fat - so really, change your protein percentage to a high level...

3. tape measures change if you are religious in your training - measure 2x a week - choose the days & keep it consistent! keep a log of your measurements - and take a picture of yourself - in same poses weekly on same day to see differences - especially in target areas you want to see changes in. I myself wanted a bigger back/shoulders especially - and the before and afters for me were astounding to say the least - (now as for my fat butt & legs? they certainly bulked up muscle wise which compounded the fat on them (my trouble spot) and I had a lot of cellulite saggy skin issues I am working on currently - it will all even out in the end i suppose as i continue to work out).

Melkor will post a lot more / better answers i am sure- but in my experience I went from fluffy to semi-cut and still going in 6-8 weeks - i am proud of going from 26% FAT  down to 18% FAT in 6-8 weeks with almost NO scale change in weight (ranged from 163 down to 154 and back up over 6 weeks for almost no scale change really but major muscle gain actually)- and i am still disgusted with the spare fat tire(s) from my low abs/hips/thighs/knees... it's a long long haul to say the least!

good luck! hope it works for you! any woman that lifts and tones seriously is kick-arse in my book! melkor will give you better advice vs just my experience/opinions!

Thanks iamme for your suggestions! First of all how much did you train to see that kind of a difference in 6-8 weeks? At 163 lbs that is a 13lb fat-ONLY loss in 6-8 weeks which is about 2lbs a week... seems like a ton. Congratulations on that. I am only looking to lose a few lbs of fat, and since it's only a few (like, 3) I'd be ok either just losing them or replacing them with muscle.

1. I stretch some after I work out, but probably not enough. I usually go at lunch time so am antsy to get back to work by time I'm done... so I do do a brief stretch but nothing extensive. I'm thinking about taking up a yoga/pilates class once a week to see if that will help. Also, I do a warmup stretch pre-workout, during which my arms do (or at least have in the past) loosen up enough to do the exercises.

2. Calorie-wise I am actually actively trying to stop keeping track so I cannot keep track right now. I am trying to purposely pay less attention to what I eat, and I believe I get enough protein. I believe people in general do.

3. I am not religious in anything -- I have kept up with the first 4 days of this program, that's all I can say so far. Aside from that I have been active (few times per week), if not weights on my own then in a weight training class or spinning class but I try to do something like that a few times per week. I understand that this will probably be less efficient for results -- but what I'm trying to get a sense of is, if I do stick to the Real Fast Fat Loss plan, what kind of results should I expect to see and at what pace? Also given that I'm not in much of a caloric deficit if at all.

What has your program been that has helped you get rid of the fat?

By the way in case it makes a difference I currently weigh about 115 (subject to daily fluctuation of course), about 5'2", 25 yr old female and my body fat... 22.8% give or take about 4% due to inevitable inaccuracies :)

the way that workout is designed, you were right for not cutting calories, it involves so many multi joint and multi muscle movements, that if you are not careful you could over train. The workout is great just make sure to watch your form! You use your upper back and shoulders in every movement so the tightness will be there, it should be temporary. I would suggest on one of your off days, to do about ten minutes of light cardio(to warm up), and then stretch you entire body for about 30 minutes.

Thanks bodyscience. I will try to stretch on my off-days, either on my own or in a yoga/pilates class.

Does it matter if I do other things on my off-days? Not weights but like today I did a spinning class...

Also, there are some exercises I can't do as prescribed. For example, the squat - jump to chinup - knee tuck: I can't do that many chinups. What if I do all the reps of squat - jump - knee tuck, and then the same # of assisted chinups, for example?

Conversely, there are other exercises like the Romanian deadlift to split snatch w/lunge where the highest weight I can do for the split snatch is quite a bit lower than what I might otherwise deadlift, and so I don't know if I'm getting the most out of the deadlift. On the other hand, I understand the benefit of combining the moves but is there a way to get more out of the combination?

Thanks again for the advice!! I stretched today, by the way (after spinning) and the tightness is MUCH better!

Oh -- and Happy Thanksgiving :) hope you're all happily digesting :)

Giving my post a little bump...

No change in measurements! :(

 Keep in mind that this is somewhat theoretical - I've got about 5 weeks to go before I'm going to start on that program myself :)

 What Cosgrove relies on in all his program designs is increasing the EPOC effect of exercise by involving as many muscle groups as possible - multi-joint compound moves and complexes are his signature exercises. Waterbury likes whole-body traning, mixing rep schemes and workouts that activate the nervous system as much as possible - when those two put their heads together you get this program :)

 You can make any sensible exercise substitutions you like in any program. The one you propose would involve the same muscle groups in roughly the same way so that's fine in my book since Poliquin once wrote that as long as it's the same type of move with roughly the same muscular activation it counts as a sensible substitution. I'm taking his word for it.

 What you do on your off days depends greatly on your recovery capacity - as long as you're not feeling any performance loss during either lifting days or spinning class I don't see that it would be a problem. Pay attention to your recovery management and your performance though - it's the only way to make sure you're really working at a level that's optimal for yourself.

 I think you'd be best served by sticking to the complexes as presented where possible - you can work on max strength deadlifts for a set or two at the beginning to preserve functional strength in that lift. Other than that, stick with the RDL/split snatch/lunge combo using your limit weight - the idea is to involve as many muscle groups as possible for an higher EPOC.

 According to Cosgrove, you can theoretically expend an additional 700 calories worth of fat post-exercise over the course of two days from the EPOC effects from his favourite complexes; in practice this is probably somewhat lower for most people. For 5-6 workouts this still works out to roughly an additional pound of fat burned off outside the gym - keep it up and you'll notice cumulative improvements that beat the pants off anything cardio can do for you :)

Thanks, melkor!

How do these workouts activate the nervous system?

For the squat - chinup - knee tuck exercise, I've just been jumping to a hold (with arms bent) and trying a controlled release from there.

And finally... I've completed 6 workouts and not seeing a lb of weight change, or any measurement change. I guess the answer there is in the food I eat? But I don't think I've been overeating... as much as I try not to count, I still keep an estimated total in the back of my mind and it's been about maintenance (except on Thanksgiving day :) ). What gives?

Well, Waterbury's hobby horse is The Secret to Motor Unit Recruitment - strength increases in a calorie deficit are mostly a function of improved CNS efficiency while training. Complex exercises done fast trains your nervous system to fire more motor units at once in any given move - it's why powerlifters don't look nearly as strong as they are. They're way better at making all their muscle fibres work simultaneously than the rest of us :)

 Yeah, sounds like a fairly good substitution - I'm going to have to find some sort of sensible substitute for that combo myself since I'm using a doorway chinup bar and there's no way I'm doing any jump/catch maneuvers with that; the bar won't be able to hold.

 Hmm, seems a bit odd that you're not seeing any changes in body composition, though usually it takes about 3-4 weeks to start seeing noticeable differences if you're on a 3-times-weekly workout schedule. Which makes me think you're right about the diet - that's usually the first thing to look at according to everything I've ever read. Dunno though - as Bodyscience noted, this is a fairly tough program and hovering around maintenance in calories is probably a good idea.

 I think that the best thing for it is to try it for another week/3 workouts and see if you can use more weight on each exercise than you could at the start. If you can, you're clearly progressing and sooner or later you'll see visible results.

OK I might take all that back: if anything, my measurements have INCREASED. Not by a lot -- .5 to 1cm which could very easily be measurement error, but pretty consistently across measurements (biceps, thighs, calves; waist is the same). Weight is also up a lb or 2, which again, could be temporary due to a possible combination of muscle soreness and a food-filled weekend.

But ... this is demotivating!

Edited to add: I don't know if I'm reaching here or just trying to make myself feel better, but the last time I measured was after 2 rest days (so 3 days after a weight workout), whereas this time it is the morning after, and I exercised in the evening. Could this be water-induced muscle swelling causing the weight AND size increase?

More than likely. If you're feeling sore or stiff your muscles will be retaining water, and trying like all get-out to add intramuscular glycogen for the next time you load'em down with weights and expect them to work.

 My arms increase about an inch when I work'em and sometimes it takes about 2-3 days for them to completely return to the pre-workout size. I presume something of the same is true of yours.

I think an inch would be a lot for my arms to increase :) but I have seen a 2 lb increase on the scale when my muscles are really sore. The last time I measured, the reason I waited 3 days to work out again was because I was ULTRA sore the day after I worked out (hurts-to-turn-over-in-bed sore) and it took that long for the soreness to subside. I'm not sure if I was still a little sore the day I ended up measuring (and later, exercising) but I do remember the scale being lower than it had been the previous few days. So maybe I'll try to plan my next measurement day to be after a day of rest, rather than the morning after an evening workout.

It kind of worries me to be maintaining size & weight on this plan. It feels like a pretty hardcore plan, and if this is what it takes to sustain my eating habits, I'm worried I'll be in trouble if I move to a less-hard-core regime.

Another question on a substitution here:

Workout B has a deadlift - reverse lunge combo, to be done with a barbell. I don't have access to a barbell so have been using dumbbells. I started out by holding them up, but this is awkward and works my forearms more than I think it should, especially with heavier weights. I also tried letting my arms hang with the weights but felt my core was working much more with the weights at my shoulders.

Any suggestions?

Isn't that more of a Bent Knee Good-morning + reverse lunge,in 2B? The target muscle would be your glutes, so anything like an actual Straight-leg Deadlift would probably be aiming a little lower down, even if your glutes have a supporting role in that.

 Though a straight-leg deadlift to rear lunge combo is the substitution I'd make - it might make the workout a tad hamstring-heavy, but my understanding is that the point of most of these exercises is maximum movement under weights more than isolating any specific set of muscles, so I'd feel comfortable subbing in any lift that uses roughly the same movement pattern.

 Well, when it comes to maintaining on this plan.. I think you'll see that it does make a difference once you body adapts more fully to the demands you impose on it and stops being so sore after every workout. That would be the "newbie shock growth" period ending - though it takes 6-8 weeks for a beginner to adapt to any specific set of exercises you'll still notice most of the gains at the start of the period. That how infomercial junk works. Anything will work for 6-8 weeks if it's your first exercise of any kind- and "you can return our Abdominizer within 6 weeks if you're not happy with it". That time limit is not a coincidence.

You're right, Melkor, it is a good-morning and not a deadlift. My mistake. Maybe part of the problem is that I can't really tell the difference so have probably been doing them wrong!

But, it sounds like there is no dumbbell good-morning. So I guess the choice is between slightly lighter weights and holding them up at my shoulders (where they rest a little on my traps) or heavier and letting them hang, but that was hurting my arms as well.

As for the maintenance comment -- do you mean that I should start to see fat loss only after my body has adapted? I only planned to stick with this for 6 weeks at most (have been good for 2 weeks, but life could always get in the way). ... I guess I'm not sure what you were saying :)

 Well, the fat loss will happen all along - but the soreness and muscle swelling you're experiencing now will be less of a feature of the program as your body adapts. Right now water retention in sore muscles is probably masking the changes in your body composition.

 As your body adapts to the new demands and starts to retain less water post-workout, you'll see the results faster :)

 You can simulate a good-morning by using the crossed-arm position of a front squat to hold the DB's in front of you, I think - it would involve some static bicep work when you bow, but it's a possibility. You wouldn't be able to use as much weight as a barbell would let you, but the difference isn't all that big I think - you should be a bit careful about overdoing good-mornings anyway :)

 I think DB deadlifts to rear lunge would be an adequate substitute - it's the one I'd do myself if I wasn't headed out to buy a barbell in a couple days when my ironmonger gets more iron in stock :)

I hope you're right!! And I hope I can stick with this long enough to see results. This has required a lot more motivation than the group classes I love, and any kind of life stress threatens to knock me off the wagon. I also hope I still see results if I do get knocked off the wagon...

I think I will try holding the DBs in front of me like you suggested. The DB deadlifts still hurt my arms. How much might a barbell cost? And do they make them more discreet? I work out at a small studio of mostly women, so I don't know that the owner would be amenable to having "iron"-looking equipment in there, but if it looked like it were made for women she wouldn't mind (hey, I don't make the rules -- just try not to break them! :) ).

Results!!

Today was the first time I repeated a rep/workout combination (ie did Workout A, 5x5 for the second time). I upped my weight on 2 of the exercises, did better on the squat set, AND did ALL the prescribed bike sprints!

Of course, the improvement may have been due to the fact that I exercised later in the day (right before dinner after lunch and an afternoon snack, instead of right before lunch 2 hrs after a small breakfast). But ... I'll take what I can get.

I have another question. Assuming I do eventually see results (or even the ones I think I feel by now), what will I have to do to maintain these results? I am hoping to be able to go back to my exercise classes, but will that cause me to lose everything I've gained (in terms of results, that is; or in terms of fat, gain everything I've lost! :) )

Well, most barbells are chrome or galvanised metal - something like this from Ivanko or something rubber-encased is the closest I can think of for something that doesn't look cast-iron. Maybe you can get them in metallic colours (hot pink :-P) if you look around a bit more or get out a can of car paint to do it yourself :)

 The most expensive part of any such setup isn't the barbell - it's all the weights :)

 Maintenace is considerably easier than persuading your body to change - consider the case of Lance Armstrong who had about 20lbs of upper body muscle mass he didn't need as a cyclist from his triathlete youth; he didn't lose that up until chemotheraphy wasted away everything all over. Some tone, hardness and strength may be lost on a maintenance program and if you're a bodybuilder or someone who depend on your muscularity for a living that's enough to make you want to not do that. For the average person however, a once-weekly workout should let you maintain at roughly the level you're at, and a twice-weekly workout should let you gain just a little over time. So my guess is that if you go back to doing your regular classes you'll maintain quite easily - adding in some strength components or maybe Mark Rippetoes' 5x5 workout once a week could help but would strictly speaking probably not be neccesary for maintenance.

 And congratulations on your improvements! Unless the last time you did the 5x5 workout you felt dizzy, nauseous, clammy or cramping the timing of your meals would have little to no influence on your workout.

So the improvements you feel are all you. Isn't it cool?

No such ill-effects last time but are you sure more adequate fueling can't have an influence on endurance during a workout? Maybe not the increased weight but maybe the endurance to make it through all my bike sprints? Anyway if you think it's all me, I'll take it :)

Of course, the weight is up AGAIN this morning... (that's the weight on the scale, not the dumbbells :) ) and I'm hoping again that it's just muscles retaining water and that it probably takes more than one day off for that all to go away. About 1lb of it went away between Sunday morning (after exercising Sat evening) and Monday morning.

As for maintenance -- that's very encouraging. I think I would do more than once a week (as long as life permits) because I really do enjoy the classes and miss them, not only when I do nothing but even now that I'm working out on my own. It would be things like spinning, Pilates, weights class, that sort of thing...

Along the same lines, is a plan like this more beneficial when you actually stick with it for the 6 weeks? What if you do, say, a week or two at a time? You obviously wouldn't see 6 weeks' worth of results, but would you see 1/6 of that, proportionally? Or is it a cumulative effect?

i am considering giving this work out a try.  i enjoy lifting weights and particularly doing the lower body. 

Just wondering on average how long a session would take to complete - need to know when i should try and fit it in?

Also, i have been doing HIIT a couple times per week and spin classes - should i cut either of these out for a bit?  

Is there any feedback from anyone else on their success doing this program?