Realistic Body Image - I am not conforming to society's standards
Sadly there are very few images of black beauty in the media. When you see ethnic beauty it is usually Latina or Asian. Yes we have Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, and Taraji Henson but they are "slender". On the "plus" side we have Jennifer Hudson and Monique. There aren't many images that spotlight the category in between "slender" and "plus size".
Personally I think Halle Berry, Scarlett Johansson, Kate Beckinsale, Charlize Theron, and many others are beautiful. However, they are all that you see. I cannot aspire to be a slender/skinny woman. It is not gonna happen. Even if I could, I don't want to look like that.
I posted new pics on my profile of ladies with bodies that I admire. While searching for pics, I saw some posts online regarding Serena Williams in a bikini that made me want to vomit. People calling her a tranny, a monkey, etc. I think her body is fierce and the fact that she still has boobs and a butt is amazing considering how athletic she is. I have seen the same things written about First Lady Michelle Obama. Because she has hips and a butt, many feel that she's fat. Both of these woman workout on a regular basis. I don't believe they could do anything else to have better physiques other than have plastic surgery.
I love Angela Bassett's body. That woman is 50 years old and looks better than most 20 somethings.
All I know is that when I told my fiancee that I wanted to lose some weight the first thing he said was "I don't want a skinny woman so don't overdo it". I am working to be the best "healthy" me that I can be. I am 5' 1" but have never been "petite". I have always had hips and a butt. I am a size 14 now at 184 lbs. At my goal weight of 144 lbs. I am a perfect size 10. I am muscular and curvy. At my best I would look more like Serena Williams or Ki Toy Johnson in a bikini...and I am more than happy to aspire to that.
lol ok, I'm going to have to split this up and respond to each part...because you kind of went all over the place.
It gives an extremely short CULTURAL CONTEXT for obesity acceptance IN NIGERIA, AFRICA. Do I have to point out to you how far a stretch is needed to make your comparison connect even relatively to the topic at hand?!
Where did black people come from? *thinks* hummm, the moon? No no, thats not right. Hmmm, germany? Nope nope, still not quite there. Oh! Oh! Is it africa? Hurrayyyy we have a cultural basis in the relative recent history! *high fives*
Okay that means the cultural practices that take place on another continent are followed by those here in America? So the culture that we live in has less relevance than some other place, doing some other thing. Sure...that makes sense. I am more influenced by "heritage" that I do not know, than growing up in American. Yup sound logic there....
The black childen you see being picked on at school because of their weight? Well, thats because they arent just in one culture! Its more like different forces at play on how most people think or behave (some minor some more apparent)
Yea, being teased and taunted for being fat has nothing at all to do with weight, it's because all the black kids aren't one in culture. More sound logic here....
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying people need to be model thin or can't have fat on them (even a little overweight isnt going to hurt you). But there is a very fine line....
What race, in your eyes, comes closest to that very fine line you describe? Then yea you want all black women to strive to be that ideal. You said all races should strive towards "similar things" what does that mean, stop being generic and be specific. Similar to who or what?
No culture supports obesity
Uhhhhhh....what? Obesity and fat were seen as signs of success and wealth and power for a LONG time in history in MANY cultures.... again, the culture we live in now didnt just suddenly appear...it evolved from those cultures ...
We are talking about CULTURE WITHIN AMERICA. THAT'S WHERE I LIVE! Stick to the only culture I know! In America obesity is not a sign of any of those things!
The problem in modern American is not cultures accepting obesity, it's people (of all races I might add) not knowing how to eat right.
Not knowing how to eat right is partially a problem. Its also decreasing demands on physical labor and general shifting to more sedentary lifestyles (along with the easier access to cheap caloric dense food). Then there is the CULTURE in america that supports weightgain. Diets are a taboo subject still, people lose weight in secret and are seen as outcasts in groups if they start being overly "careful" with calories. Our culture is VERY VERY much affecting the weightgain problem...how we view food and its place in life. Combined in the leftover cultural effects from the last thousands of years which saw weight as a positive feature....its kind of a complicated issue...but those are a few of the big factors.
DIETS IN AMERICA ARE TABOO! DO YOU **** KNOW HOW BIG THE DIET INDUSTRY IS IN AMERICA?! IN 2008 DIET INDUSTRY WAS 40 BILLION DOLLARS!! Yup a 40 billion dollar industry is a taboo one for sure. MORE SOUND LOGIC!!!!
Actually, I'm not a fan of most cultures... i think they are limiting (kind of like religion). There are some good things in there, but then there are a LOT of bad that are continued simply because of tradition and not wanting to lose ones "history". ((And yes, i realize that my own thinking on the subject isnt unique and there are probably others who could be seen the same way...meaning its a sub-culture in itself....thats why i said 'most' :)
How much do you know about African-American culture? I could careless if you liked it or not...don't talk about something you haven't lived or studied beyond cultural stereotypes...
I think you do not like African-Americans at all, basically I am calling you a racist based on your logic.
Hmmm, actually my first boyfriend was an african american...i like them a lot :D I'm not really into the entire "judge people by their skin color"....in terms of weight-loss or lifestyle or anything else.
So because your first boyfriend was African-American that means you cannot be racist. (MORE SOUND LOGIC!!!) That could have been years ago for one, and that can certainly be the very reason why one dislikes a race/culture/people. I still stick my original post, based on a cultural bias when you are talking about weight, I think your racist.(We are just talking about weight here, who knows what other stereotypes you pledge allegiance to!)
I will not stoop to your level ...Okay, I have to resort to calling you an idiot.
Lol, its nice you didnt have to stoop. Oh well, I guess I have that effect on people. This subject is kind of complicated and has a lot more going on than just a few simple factors ....so.... *insert all kinds of condescending things here*
Thanks for splicing my post and putting MY OPENING STATEMENT WITH MY LAST STATEMENT IN REVERSE ORDER! Can you be anymore disingenuous? HERE IS MY STATEMENT IN MY OWN WORDS!!!
Okay, I have to resort to calling you an idiot. (MY OPENING STATEMENT!)
I will not stoop to your level by "playing the race card". (SECOND TO LAST SENTENCE IN MY LAST FULL PARAGRAPH!)
Not only can you not make a sound case (without using race, that is what I asked you to do.) You are trying to use my words by reshaping them to fit your response. All of your arguments are devoid of any tangible logic. They are simply fantasies you have created. You also noticeably leave out major points of what write. In any-case you still haven't made an argument that has nothing to do with race. Get off of race and stick to weight! There are white women with beautiful curves just like all those pictures, this is about not conforming to weight ideals, that has nothing to do with race.....
Solar Eclipse
....seriously?....
This culture stuff is basic basic basic history and societal development. I'm not sure what I could say that you could accept without having to teach you sooo much about history first.
Hehe its like trying to discuss planets and the universe with someone who thinks thinks all existence is their little deserted island o.O ...
Mmmm well, if your still in school...I would suggest taking a few ancient history or society classes ><
Still you haven't addressed any of my claims...You responses are getting more and more off topic. I will stop intellectually picking on you. It's pretty obvious you can't defend yourself (within limits of reason and logic that is). You are free to believe whatever you want, and free to remain as ignorant (and stupid) as you want. Your delusional world serves you well, but I live in reality. Your fantasy logic does not pass the scrutiny in here. I've systematically countered your arguments exposing their very illogical loopholes. If your statements aren't based on logic and fact then you should state that from the beginning. I wouldn't waste my time telling you your ignorance is wrong. You still haven't put an argument that is not based around racial lines, hence I still hold you as a racist. You haven't put up any reasonable argument that black culture implicitly condones obesity. You can no longer defend your point of view (this is what I believe) so you say something as off topic as to question my knowledge of history. If your argument was fact based all you need are facts, history will fall into place. Your particular knowledge is not needed to for you to prove your point (unless your point ONLY has merit because some specific thing about you gives it that.) You have no idea what knowledge I have. I spend so much time reading, I guarantee I know more about history than you. Oh and about the school thing I am a Business Management/Philosophy & Law double major. I know much more about history, early philosophy, and early schools of thought than you think. At the end of the day you are still stupid, still ignorant, and still racist. You cannot make a single argument that doesn't pertain to race. I hope the rest of KS doesn't think like you. I shutter to think what that amount of ignorance is capable of....sigh seems like society still has a very long way to go....
Solar Eclipse....
Edit: If anyone from KS resents my last sentence, I do apologize. I do not mean to make his ignorance a state wide character trait.
Original Post by loriklorik:
....seriously?....
This culture stuff is basic basic basic history and societal development. I'm not sure what I could say that you could accept without having to teach you sooo much about history first.
Hehe its like trying to discuss planets and the universe with someone who thinks thinks all existence is their little deserted island o.O ...
Mmmm well, if your still in school...I would suggest taking a few ancient history or society classes ><
lorik,
You should stop pretending to understand the black culture. Most people don't appreciate it too much when you preach to them about thier experience. You aren't exactly qualified to do that. I would not do this to another subset of AMERICAN people. you will not catch me telling a hispanic woman how her being Hispanic has affected her. She can tell me that. You say you do not like culture, so how about not focusing on it and finding common ground instead? Anybody on here is obviously trying to attain healthy goals so there is common ground already. Forget our culture, history etc. I identify American before I identify African. That is my experience, not Nigeria or Chad. There is no way a girl in America can avoid the thin obsessed media.
I don't dislike cuture, because it is something that gives us diversity, and allows for more discussion and interesting conversation, even if it can create rifts in the process. It only limits you when you focus on the differences, and not the unique experiences and outlooks that it can bring. For everybody to fit in one little box and identify as one type, shape or race would be soooo boring.
I know far too many African American females, including myself that are very much aware of the risks of obesity. People will use all kinds of excuses when they aren't empowered to change it, not limited to race and genetics. So I blame a lack of information and willpower, not a cultural identity. Being obese at my HBCU was not idealized, or somethign people strove for. I would say that the women people looked up to at my school for their bodies were usually around a size 8 or so, hourglass and a few were basketball players, with a strong healthy build. I went to school in a city known for its great food, so there are plenty of obese people here, white, black, etc. Race is not the reason. A relatively laid back atmosphere, with more empahsis on flavor than nutrition is.
Not liking culture is like not liking politics. Sure there are many aspects of both that can be bad (haha, like politicians) but they are not bad or good in and of themselves.
And actually I have a friend that is a full figured model and even though she is bigger, she has a flat stomach, curves in the right places, smooth and so forth. She looks better than many thinner people. But I guess that's why is is a model, she looks better than average. It's all about how you carry your weight.
Original Post by cellotlhicks:
You should stop pretending to understand the black culture.
I'm not defending lorik or getting involved in what is being argued about here... but you don't have to be from a certain culture to understand it.
Original Post by alibsam:
Original Post by cellotlhicks:
You should stop pretending to understand the black culture.
I'm not defending lorik or getting involved in what is being argued about here... but you don't have to be from a certain culture to understand it.
haha, you can be in one and not understand it.
Yeah, but you shouldn't try to explain it to people like you are the expert either.
Original Post by cellotlhicks:
Yeah, but you shouldn't try to explain it to people like you are the expert either.
EXACTLY!!! I don't need a lecture or history lesson regarding my culture embracing being fat. That has nothing to do with my OP. Being overweight or underweight has never been glorified in my circle of family or friends. All black women aren't big and most don't want to be skinny. They couldn't if they tried.
Whether lorik likes my culture or not, I cannot strive to be a size 4. I don't have the body type for that.
Original Post by cellotlhicks:
lorik,
You should stop pretending to understand the black culture. Most people don't appreciate it too much when you preach to them about thier experience. You aren't exactly qualified to do that.
Yup, its not like I took classes on cultural influences and differences in school or anything during my business training.... or a range of phylosophy classes and history classes.... oh wait! Yayyy I did! Hurray edumacaitune!
This stuff is really basic...black culture, hispanic culture, japanese culture....whatever, it all has basis somewhere and developed from something. And even if you want to just ignore the cultures by race, thats fine, just look at the culture 150 years ago in america (the general culture) and what was valued and needed. (hurray for books and learning again! I knows about my own countries history!)
And then, have a look at CURRENT culture and media (ooo, it would be sooo handy if this were part of what I learnt in marketing classes! I could like totally see how little things that most people would think are random actually are purposefully put there and speak so much about current cultures and target markets!).
Whether lorik likes my culture or not, I cannot strive to be a size 4. I don't have the body type for that.
Again, I think there is a misunderstanding going on here. I am not saying everyone needs to be a size for (or even if that is ideal). Thinner does not equal better... all I have simply said is that allowing a culture to support an unhealthy behaviour is the dangerous part (and what happens so often)
America currently has a very sensitive and unhealthy culture towards weight...while on the surface it may seem america is very unaccepting of weight, thats not really true when you compare it to anywhere else in the world (where this stuff is far less tolerated and people are called on their weight as just a matter of fact). It's kind of complicated, but basically...the hyper desire and value on being thin is actually supporting people getting fat and growing obesity rates (its evolving as kind of an counter-culture to rebel against the "everything must be stick thin" tone of some media).
The reason? People are making out the argument to be something as black and white ***NOT TALKING RACIALLY HERE** (even here in this post you can see it). When I say something like "healthy weight" and "they look at little overweight"...you counter with "i dont want to be supermodel thin!!". I never say anything like that, but in your mind the argument seems to be black and white as if weightloss or fitness means trying to achieve a skeleton figure.
Basically, we should not be supporting the overweight ideal or the underweight ideal....we should simply be supporting a healthy and fit lifestyle that comes between (and it's fine if a certain population goes too far in either direction, but the focus of the main culture should remain the same in the middle instead of splitting towards either side).
Lorik, no one cares what classes u took. I just don't like that both me and the OP are on here, striving to be healthy and you felt it necessary to post long posts about the black culture and size perceptions. I don't think she was trying to take it there, nor is she resting on her cultural identity to define what size she should be, So that is a long, drawn on mess that I will not read. I'd rather go get more information to live a more healthy life 
. You have a good day, and don't wear your fingers out too much, ok?
How you hold weight is really determined by your genetics, no matter what race. But there is and can be differences among races in that respect. However, Africa itself is various in genetics too.
Original Post by cellotlhicks:
Lorik, no one cares what classes u took. I just don't like that both me and the OP are on here, striving to be healthy and you felt it necessary to post long posts about the black culture and size perceptions. I don't think she was trying to take it there, nor is she resting on her cultural identity to define what size she should be, So that is a long, drawn on mess that I will not read. I'd rather go get more information to live a more healthy life
This is posted in the lounge... Threads in the lounge tend to get off topic pretty quickly. He was just responding to things people said to him. *shrugs*
How bad is it that I can kinda see where Lorik is coming from?
Change_in_sc, the women in your gallery are no doubt beautiful women, I'm not going to argue that. Some are certainly overweight though, and that simply isn't healthy.
Original Post by loriklorik:
Original Post by cellotlhicks:
l
Yup, its not like I took classes on cultural influences and differences in school or anything during my business training.... or a range of phylosophy classes and history classes.... oh wait! Yayyy I did! Hurray edumacaitune!
This stuff is really basic...black culture, hispanic culture, japanese culture....whatever, it all has basis somewhere and developed from something. And even if you want to just ignore the cultures by race, thats fine, just look at the culture 150 years ago in america (the general culture) and what was valued and needed. (hurray for books and learning again! I knows about my own countries history!)
And then, have a look at CURRENT culture and media (ooo, it would be sooo handy if this were part of what I learnt in marketing classes! I could like totally see how little things that most people would think are random actually are purposefully put there and speak so much about current cultures and target markets!).
Whatever you sat in a class and learned about culture cannot make you more knowledgeable about it than a person who lives in that culture. I don't care what classes you took (by the way I took a majority of similar classes for my double major), you do not have more knowledge about black culture than me (Period) All your classes and all the stuff they say that has influenced my culture none of it has been more relevant to my life than a single personal experience. That event has nothing to do with culture, history, or any other ancestral knowledge. Kids who are born here no matter what their ancestry is almost always identify themselves as Americans First! So when applying your cultural influences it really doesn't matter what their race is if they were born in American whatever is dominant in American culture will be the major influence. The dominating ideal of weight in America presently is unhealthy thinness. It was previously thought that some sub-cultures (within the Domain of American culture that is) were immune to this. However, recently there has been a dramatic rise in eating disorders in minority communities. Historic relevance may impact a race, but no where near as much as the present society that people live in.
Basically, we should not be supporting the overweight ideal or the underweight ideal....we should simply be supporting a healthy and fit lifestyle that comes between...
I agree with you here. This is fact. Going beyond this point is where I feel you are over stepping your bounds...
Good luck to you....
Original Post by jblarghp:
How bad is it that I can kinda see where Lorik is coming from?
Change_in_sc, the women in your gallery are no doubt beautiful women, I'm not going to argue that. Some are certainly overweight though, and that simply isn't healthy.
There are just as many thin people that are not healthy. Just like I have met vegetarians that are not healthy. I have given several advice about vegetarian dishes that they didn't even know about.
Don't get so hung up on size. It is not a one size fits all with regards to health and wellness.
Original Post by change_in_sc:
Original Post by jblarghp:
How bad is it that I can kinda see where Lorik is coming from?
Change_in_sc, the women in your gallery are no doubt beautiful women, I'm not going to argue that. Some are certainly overweight though, and that simply isn't healthy.
There are just as many thin people that are not healthy. Just like I have met vegetarians that are not healthy. I have given several advice about vegetarian dishes that they didn't even know about.
Don't get so hung up on size. It is not a one size fits all with regards to health and wellness.
That's exactly why I <3 Dr. Oz. It's not about your weight/bmi when he talks about health. He doesn't care whether we're black or white either. .. Or: Blue or green! All of the above can be incorrect in gauging someone's health. It's not about the number on your scale/clothing tag.
I love Dr. Oz.
He says if you measure your waist you will know if you are too fat…His suggestion: Take your height and divide that number in half. That should be your waist measure at max.- That's realistic,imho. Thanks Dr. Oz! The doctor/man effectively explained the importance of getting your weight to healthy proportions. The waist line is the best indication of healthy weight.
Article below:
Paging Dr. Oz
Source: http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahshow/slid eshow1_ss_youdocs_20061129/2
"Dr. Oz introduced us to a part of the body many people had never heard of—the omentum. You know that a poor diet can cause your omentum to get larger, but once it's large, can you shrink it? "Absolutely. That's the whole purpose of the omentum," Dr. Oz says. "We're born with omentums that we can store fat in. So we're supposed to be able to have it get bigger and smaller."
You also know that your target omentum measurement is 32 and a half inches for women and 35 inches for men. If you have trouble remembering that target, Dr. Oz has a shortcut—your waist shouldn't be any larger than half of your height."
I agree, one size certainly doesn't fit all.
If you're clinically overweight you are at a higher risk for certain health problems, and yes, the same goes for being underweight. I don't consider being overweight or underweight healthy.
I can put money on at least 2 of the women in your gallery being overweight. Even though they may be attractive women, that's not something people should aim for, simply because of the health risks.
I could maybe see someone who is obese using say Jennifer Hudson as motivation to get down to a healthier weight. Then once at that weight, working on getting down to a suggested healthy weight for their height and frame.
eta: this was in response to post #76
@loriklorik: A family member read our post and thought that I went a bit overboard, so I would like to apologize for calling you racist. I felt your comments were severely disingenuous towards African-Americans and let my emotion run a little high. I do not know you to call you racist and for that I do apologize.
Good luck to you (but please be much more sensitive when talking about other cultures, especially to the people who live it)
Solar Eclipse.....
Original Post by solareclps:
@loriklorik: A family member read our post and thought that I went a bit overboard, so I would like to apologize for calling you racist. I felt your comments were severely disingenuous towards African-Americans and let my emotion run a little high. I do not know you to call you racist and for that I do apologize.
Good luck to you (but please be much more sensitive when talking about other cultures, especially to the people who live it)
Solar Eclipse.....
That was big of you. kudos.
I hate when boards get to passionate. It is good when people can apologize. Maybe I was a little mean too, but hoprefully Lorik will be more sensitive in the future.
