Religion!

OK, so in another topic, religion came up.  So what are your beliefs, opinions, thoughts, confusions, questions? And of course keep it civil, don't judge or bash, if you think something is offensive, stick "in my opinion" in front, so you can't get in poo.

Original Post by swamp_rat:

Getting back on topic...something that has always confused me about religion;  why are there so many forms of Christianity? they all seem to have the same basic "rules" but are still quite different.  catholics go to confession Protestants don't, but they believe in the same god right?  I could be sounding completely idiotic right now just never really got the whole denomination thing.

the protestants broke away (in protest) from the catholic church because they didn't agree with many of the practices of the church.  they didn't like the fact that the church and priests were getting rich through tithing the often-poor parishoners.  they didn't like the fact that the clergy were seen as necessary intermediaries between the people and god (in effect, ordinary people were seen to have no ability to commune directly with god; they had to go through the church and its representatives).  they saw the trappings of the church as contrary to the bible's edicts against idol worship, etc. 

that's the coles-notes version.  obviously it's more complicated than that, and the protestants continued (and still continue) to splinter into many, many other churches.  bottom line, the bible is contradictory and there are as many ways to interpret it as there are authors and readers.

Original Post by fortius:

Original Post by azirra:

Since my previous examples of transition fossils were dismissed, how about the flu virus? okay, so technically not an "animal"...but still a great example of evolution at work.

The reason we get a new strain of the flu every winter is that it mutates. So you get the flu and build up antibodies to beat it, then the flu mutates (evolves) to a new strain, so when you catch it next year your antibodies no longer work. The flu is constantly changing and we can physically watch its RNA sequence change right before our very eyes. We can see exactly where the "parent" strain mutated to create the new strain. To me, actually watching evolution happen in a test tube is more compelling evidence than any skeletal remains anyone could dig up. Although those are compelling too.  (Okay Ill shut up now.)

Very very interesting.

 That's interesting? I thought everyone knew that evolution happened by mutations in the genetic code.

Original Post by jblarghp:

Original Post by fortius:

Original Post by azirra:

Since my previous examples of transition fossils were dismissed, how about the flu virus? okay, so technically not an "animal"...but still a great example of evolution at work.

The reason we get a new strain of the flu every winter is that it mutates. So you get the flu and build up antibodies to beat it, then the flu mutates (evolves) to a new strain, so when you catch it next year your antibodies no longer work. The flu is constantly changing and we can physically watch its RNA sequence change right before our very eyes. We can see exactly where the "parent" strain mutated to create the new strain. To me, actually watching evolution happen in a test tube is more compelling evidence than any skeletal remains anyone could dig up. Although those are compelling too.  (Okay Ill shut up now.)

Very very interesting.

 That's interesting? I thought everyone knew that evolution happened by mutations in the genetic code.

It's so interesting that it has to be shown over and over again for the Christians who are lurking.

Original Post by seratuki:

I'm not offended eather...I just don't think the bible tells the whole story.

just from a woman's point of view...we have the kids and take care of the men.(traditionally speaking!) But we should submit? I find it funny...we get all the work. I've seen those traditional women on tv and such...doing 1000000 times more work then the men they submit to and still seen as below them...

I would rather drill holes in my toes and hang myself feet first from the ceiling fan....

Seratuki, reading your posts on the subject you may be interested in "The Hebrew Goddess" by Raphael Patai. Patai is a Rabbinical scholar and the book is about how in the earliest Hebrew Traditions there is a feminine face of God (one name for Her is Shekinah) and how the letters of YHVH in Hebrew have both masculine and feminine components. And so on.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Goddess-3rd-Enla rged/dp/0814322719">The Hebrew Goddess on Amazon</a>

Original Post by swamp_rat:

Yes to all those BUT I also think that women should not be put in positions of high power (especially military/combat roles), I think that women should cater to their man, make them dinner, clean, that kinda stuff, and that we should be the less dominant, "weaker" sex.  That is why I said "a bit" of an anti-feminist, and frankly when I hear women whine about equal rights and all that, it for some reason annoys me.  I by all means am very happy that they did it so I can have rights and a job and all that, but I think enough is enough, put on a bra do your job and take care of your man.

*I am now preparing myself for a blast of ***** 

 I prefer men who are grown up enough to take care of THEMSELVES. If being a feminist prevents me from being saddled with some pathetic man-child, all the better for me! Have fun being weaker.

ETA : I read some of the further responses on this--so you like to cook for your man, nothing wrong with that. But why disparage a whole socio-political movement because of it, or bark orders at all women to do the same? why can't you just say "I'm a person who enjoys cooking and other domestic activities and be done with it? Nothing about feminism says you can't enjoy domestic activities--there's a whole subset of feminism devoted to cooking, knitting and other traditionally "feminine" activities. This doesn't make people any less "dominant" or self-sufficient.

And FWIW I've known several MEN who enjoy cooking for other people. I had an ex-boyfriend who liked to cook for me. My brother went to culinary school because he enjoys it so much. My male bassist likes to cook and will often make food not only for his wife but for the whole band when we come over. 

I have enjoyed this forum. I have had the opportunity to share my views and have listened to all of yours. I know better than to discuss these things in this setting. As a Christian I am not responsible for changing your minds, I am simply to share what has been proven over and over to me the last 42 years of my life. 

I know that God is in Heaven and on his throne.

I know the His son Jesus is setting at his right side.

I know that there are forces that we can't see at war over the same things we are discussing...Belief vs Indifference.

I know that Jesus Christ came to this earth,died for my sins and rose on the 3rd day and ascended into Heaven

I know that I am a sinner and because of that I do not deserve to enter God's Kingdom for he can not be in the presence of sin.

I know that because of the sacrifice that Jesus made of us we can be forgiven of our sins, covered by the blood of Jesus.

I know that I have acknowledged my sin and asked Jesus to be the Master of my Life.

I know that He now lives in my heart, my old self is passed away and I now walk in a newness of life.

I know that I continue to sin but as I confess that sin daily He gives me strength to overcome that sin.

I know that he is at work in my life and the more questions I ask the more he proves himself to be the one and only God.

I know that he will give you the same understanding and comfort that he has given me if you will only ask Him.

I know that he can make a difference in your life the same way he has made a difference in my life. 

The bible says: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The wages of sin is death (separation from God) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we will confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins

My prayer is that you will ask him today.

No one KNOWS anything.

No one KNOWS that god exists.

You think, You do not know.

Original Post by lnorris55:

I believe that I am forgiven for my sins present, past and future

Hehe. I don't mean to offend, but if I personally believed that, I would be out "sinning" all day and night!

However, I don't believe in sins/heaven/hell. I do believe in doing what is morally right - and, religious or not, most of us have a fair idea of what that is. Helping others, being selfless, being kind and generous, being brave, looking after others, treating others as one would like to be treated etc. Of course, I'm not perfect, but I do try to do the right thing.

I believe God, heaven and hell are human-created ideas to explain why people should act morally. I am half Maori. My ancestors used to worship the sun and give gifts to the sun to ensure that it would rise again for them and provide light and fire the next day. It doesn't mean they actually caused the sun to rise and set, it means they visualised a deity that made something they didn't previously understand make more sense. Perhaps now God is also a useful explanation for what happens in the afterlife?

I definitely believe in evolution.

I do believe that people have souls and that it is possible for this energy to remain on earth after death (so by extension I believe in ghosts, just not the kind that go boo!) And if it is true that all energy remains constant and humans have a life-force that makes them more than the sum of their parts, then maybe that allows for reincarnation too. I definitely think it's a possibility, however like all these things its pretty dang hard to prove anything (exactly why this forum exists, so we can all have fun arguin', lol).

What I do think is that if there was a god, he wouldn't send people to hell. How can you be that bad? If I was God I'd bring everyone on up except for the super-baddies, who would remain spirits for a veerrry long time. Probably why I'm not running the show!

I believe in karma. In fact, I have very buddhist leanings although there are points of this religion and philosophy that I disagree with, particularly disssociation (theory goes that you should lose all emotional attachment to everything in order to attain spiritual enlightenment. Losing attachment to my handbags and shoes, well, unlikely but maybe that could give me some spiritual kudos. However, I have no plans to EVER detach from my family and friends - life wouldn't be worth living!)

I believe in love and let love. I had a boyfriend, then I had a girlfriend, then I had another boyfriend. I believe in sex before marriage if it makes you happy. Certainly made me happy!

On another note - in fact, replying to swamprats anti-fem rantings. Proud feminist here! You only have to look at posts like that to see how far away from equal rights women are. Women in the workforce as evidence of equal rights hides a plethora of other issues such as equal pay, equal rights to promotion, sexism and discrimination, lack of childcare and maternity leave (let's face it, if the boys had the babies paternity leave would be well-funded and practically endless), access to contraception and abortion, political representation, domestic violence, rape etc.

That said, I don't hate men. There are plenty of men in my life whom I love dearly - my dad, 2 brothers, 4 uncles, male friends and my boyfriend of 2 years who is the love of my life. He's not some feminist-trodden doormat - in fact quite the opposite - if he was a doormat he'd be more likely to seek some equally lacking lady to cook and clean to swell his ego. That said, he's a chef so he does nearly all the cooking because he's better at it, and enjoys it more. Suits both of us just fine

I LOVE what schnooder and seratuki have said about hell. I'm with you guys - if it really exists I'll give the big guy (or big girl?!) the finger and then troop on down to where my family and friends - in fact everyone I know - are already roasting the marshmallows...

OMG I never realised my post got so long!

*Prays for forgiveness to God, Goddess, Krishna, Buddha and Allah in order to cover all bases*

*Prays for forgiveness by anyone else she has left out*

My take on it is filled with utter bitterness, and for that, I apologize in advance.

I was raised by a Christian mother and grandmother. Note that my father wasn't ever around, for the lady who has issues with the thought of being subservient to men. This point alone has left me questioning. I never met my father. My mother took me to him when I was a wee baby and he said I wasn't his. I have two children by different men. And no, that doesn't mean I was a slut. What that means is that in trying to find a life partner, I went through two men. Neither would take his responsibility and stick around to help raise his child. To be perfectly honest, a majority of the people I know well are single mothers for one reason or another. Sure, I could have held onto my own children's fathers if I would stand for their drug use, numerous trips to jail, my daughter's father's actual rape of my best friend, the list goes on and on. Was I to have simply sat back and took it? Gave them undying support in all their endeavors?

Another thing that bothers me so much about Christianity, the Bible clearly states that people will be deceived, which will lead to their spending eternity in Hell. This is another that fuels my bitterness. What kind of God ALLOWS his creation to be deceived? What amount of effort would it take to simply show yourself? Heck, I wouldn't ask for him to do flips and jump through hoops. Simply show yourself... That act alone would turn the tide to "believers". I just don't understand this whole faith concept. What's the big deal? Really? Why not simply show yourself instead of expecting people who you're supposed to love enough to send your son to die for to blindly believe in you. That reminds me of the notions of ghosts, aliens, etc. Though, those might be a bit more believable. Answer this, you of the Christian faith. Could you give birth to your own children. Take them off to some deserted island. Hand them a book and tell them that they are to believe in you or you will damn them to eternal misery. Then, watch as generations pass by. Those who may have seen you have long since passed. Faith alone is what holds the few of your offspring to believe you exist. While the numbers are dwindling down, you stand as ultimate judge over them all and sternly send them to oblivion simply because they could not believe in you.

There is so much suffering in the world as a whole. Kids starve to death. Parents, if you can call them that, murder their own children. There is so much that I could never list it all. Yet, where is god?

You know, I once taught Children's Church. I once attended church every chance I got. I once believed so blindly, so strongly, in god that I would beat myself up if an unkind thought, yes THOUGHT, about another person entered my mind. I felt inadequate. I constantly felt like I wasn't worthy. I felt like I was damned every single time I made a mistake. I felt as if I were constantly displeasing the most important person in my life. I could never measure up. I could never, ever live up to what I thought a "true Christian" should be. Then, doubt began to creep into my mind. In a wild panic, I would push it out. Oh gods, how could I doubt God?? I would literally pray, begging god, to take those doubts away. They had to have been the absolute worst thing I ever wrestled with as a Christian. Then, after about 3 years of that, I finally gave in and started examining the doubts. Where was god?

This has to be the most embarrassing thing I've ever admitted to. But, as a final stand, I turned to the internet for answers. There was no way I could take it to people I knew in real life about something as serious as disbelief. After having tried to -force- myself to believe for three years, I started freaquenting "Christian" run web sites. I posted in forums asking questions. Of course, these questions were asked in desperatation. The things that were bothering me so badly were the things that I asked. Instead of them patiently answering my questions while trying to keep me from losing what little willpower I had left, they treated me like I was Satan who just walked into a church and sat on the front row! Instead of my questions being viewed as honest questions, I was seen as an athiest, there to create turmoil and disbelief. That's when I finally gave up on it. It's been around 4 years or so since. Now, no matter what I do, no matter how much I'd like to be able to believe in a god, I can't. The doubt is so strong.

What kind of god would allow for someone to be literally tortured because they cannot produce faith?

What bothers me more than anything is the thought of a death with nothing else. That thought alone has caused me to go to church once more within the past four years, trying to see if I could again. Nothing, as expected. I personally think that the expectation of faith is religion's downfall, and ultimately, Christianity's.

You wouldn't believe the way I see 90% of the Christians I know act. Gossip, backstabbing, front pew Christians and devils through the week, political liars, etc. In all honesty, the Christians I know are some of the worst people I have ever met. I'd seriously rather depend on an unbeliever than a believer for anything, especially life threatening.

Now, this wasn't to say that all Christians are alike. This is just MY experience. Actually, I'd love to be able to believe like I used to. Alas, it isn't possible.

Sorry for such a long, rambling post.

Wow...okay...CoffinCritter..First, I love your screen name...lol Second, thanks. I will be looking into that, it sounds like something I would be interested in. :)

Merylwhite1, your last comment made me laugh out loud. I guess I'll see you down there, just make sure someone brings the chocolate and grahm (sp?) crackers

Momof2kd...To be honest, I totally understand what you mean....I used to go to church all the time until the night janitor sexually assaulted me in the basement of the church.

to put it mldly

But thats another story in and of it's self....At that point I moved and never stepped foot in church again.

Original Post by swamp_rat:

Ali, I think yours is the calmest reaction I have ever gotten.

I didn't want to say something incredibly rude. 

This is what I believe...God exisits. He created the earth and all the inhabitants in 6 days. The 7th day is a holy day of rest.  Men and women are created in His image and created equally. Woman was made from the rib of man, not from his head or from his foot. We are equal.  God is not a harsh God. We do not go to hell for our disbelief in Him. If you are an athiest, you are not doomed to hell for your unbelief.  I do believe, though, if you know there is a God and then you deny it, you will spend eternity in hell. What is hell? I believe it is continual torment. No matter who you are with, it will be utter torment to your soul.  I believe that God is a just god. We were given free agency, meaning we can make our own decisions, good or bad, but since there must be opposition in all things, we must also accept the consequences of our actions.    As for knowing there is a god, that is called Faith. Faith is to hope for things not seen which are true.  Some have little or no faith, non-believers. Some have much faith, those who do believe in god's existence. It is not fair for those who do not believe to mock and attack those who do believe.  Just as it is not right for those who believe to mock those who do not believe. It is my belief that God exists and is a generous, merciful, loving god, but, as I stated before, opposition in all things, so there must be judgement as well.  Also, God does not send temptations. That is Lucifer. We have our free agency and make our own decisions. When we sin, we can be forgiven if we truly choose to make amends. This is my belief.  To each his own. I don't care if you are Christian or athiest, just live your best life and don't infringe on the rights of others.

Original Post by misskady:

Some have little or no faith, non-believers.

once again, i do have faith.  just not in the same things that you do.

pg, I mean a faith or belief in god. You stated that you are athiest, therefore, no belief in god? correct?  

i have faith that there is no god, among other things.

eternal torment seems a bit out of line, as far as punishments go

especially to call oneself 'merciful' and 'loving' and then dish out eternal torment as a consequence?

a parenting expert would call that overreacting to misbehavior

but i wouldn't blame God for being stressed out and/or depressed if that's why souls are sent to hell - people are a PITA

still, it's not a very elegant solution to the problem and doesn't really solve anything - just gets people out of god's hair

because after a while, you'd get used to being tormented and it wouldn't be as tormenting any more

*disclaimer: doesn't beleive in hell

Original Post by lnorris55:

You think there is proof in evolution? If a reptile becomes a bird then where are the transition animals.

Try archeoptryx. Or odontochelys for turtles. There are plenty of transitionals but the creationist put their blinders on, stick their fingers in their ears and go "nananananananana".

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

but i wouldn't blame God for being stressed out and/or depressed if that's why souls are sent to hell - people are a PITA

people are a PITA, nomo, but god made 'em.  if i screw up dinner, i don't blame dinner, and i don't punish dinner.

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

eternal torment seems a bit out of line, as far as punishments go

especially to call oneself 'merciful' and 'loving' and then dish out eternal torment as a consequence?

During my time at a Southern Baptist school in Georgia I asked the Bible teacher a simple question, "what happens to all those who never heard of Jesus? The Aztecs, Myans, American Indians, etc, etc." His answer...hell. What kind of creeature would create millions of souls just to torment for eternity? Now I know many of you are saying "thats not what MY religion says" and thats the problem. Your basing your life and attitudes toward other people and cultures based on a set of goat herder stories nobody can even agree on completely.