Religion!

OK, so in another topic, religion came up.  So what are your beliefs, opinions, thoughts, confusions, questions? And of course keep it civil, don't judge or bash, if you think something is offensive, stick "in my opinion" in front, so you can't get in poo.

 

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

but i wouldn't blame God for being stressed out and/or depressed if that's why souls are sent to hell - people are a PITA

people are a PITA, nomo, but god made 'em.  if i screw up dinner, i don't blame dinner, and i don't punish dinner.

well, i guess that's the difference between you and god 

that, and the omnipotence and omniscience and stuff

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

but i wouldn't blame God for being stressed out and/or depressed if that's why souls are sent to hell - people are a PITA

people are a PITA, nomo, but god made 'em.  if i screw up dinner, i don't blame dinner, and i don't punish dinner.

well, i guess that's the difference between you and god 

that, and the omnipotence and omniscience and stuff

well - yeah!  if i could have made a perfect dinner and i knew i was choosing not to do so, it makes even less sense to punish dinner!

Original Post by falconer33:

During my time at a Southern Baptist school in Georgia I asked the Bible teacher a simple question, "what happens to all those who never heard of Jesus? The Aztecs, Myans, American Indians, etc, etc." His answer...hell.

Have you read Dante's Inferno? In it, Limbo is the place where the virtuous pagans lived, such as Virgil, Saladin, and Ovid.

Apparently there is something called the Virtuous Pagan.

Falconer,

I believe all those who never heard of Jesus will have the opportunity to hear of him, and accept or not accept the truth of him, in the hereafter. I believe there is another life for the spirit after this life which was meant for gaining a body, learning experiences and a test of faith.

Original Post by misskady:

Falconer,

I believe all those who never heard of Jesus will have the opportunity to hear of him, and accept or not accept the truth of him, in the hereafter. I believe there is another life for the spirit after this life which was meant for gaining a body, learning experiences and a test of faith.

Do you have scripture to support your beliefs? haha... Otherwise, making assumptins about what God will or will not do is BLASPHEMY!

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

eternal torment seems a bit out of line, as far as punishments go

especially to call oneself 'merciful' and 'loving' and then dish out eternal torment as a consequence?

There are a few things I don't understand about the Christian concept of Hell, as it was explained to me by the born-again First Assembly kids in Phoenix:

1)There are no degrees of sin. There's a passage in the Bible that says even thinking of committing adultery is the same as actually doing it. And the punishment is eternal damnation no matter what the transgression. So not only does the adulterer recieve the same punishment as one who "lusts in their heart" a la Jimmy Carter, but according to this theory, Gandhi is recieving the same fate for not being a Christian as Hitler is for mass genocide.

2)There is also the theory that no matter WHAT you do, you TOTALLY escape punishment altogether if you only accept Christ. So, if Dahmer had accepted Christ before his death he totally would get off scott-free for murder and cannibalism, while his victims would be doomed to Hell if they hadn't.

None of this seems fair at all.

http://biotechfiles.com/2008/06/theropod-rapt ors-the-retro-chicken-genome/

This a very interesting article. I first saw it on  Discovery and I'm waiting for Hans to publish his findings. In short he is looking at the tail lengths of dinos to modern birds. He found that the Tyranosaur averaged 30-35 vert in it's tail, the Archaeopteryx 15 and a modern chicken 5-8. When he looked at a day old chick under the scope what did he find? 15 vertebrae. Hmmm.  You can read the rest.

The only way you cant see that evolution is a fact is if you dont want to see it.

Original Post by fortius:

Original Post by misskady:

Falconer,

I believe all those who never heard of Jesus will have the opportunity to hear of him, and accept or not accept the truth of him, in the hereafter. I believe there is another life for the spirit after this life which was meant for gaining a body, learning experiences and a test of faith.

Do you have scripture to support your beliefs? haha... Otherwise, making assumptins about what God will or will not do is BLASPHEMY!

 But thats what religion does, it makes assumptions about things. Things about which they have no real clue. Christianity for example makes all these claims using a book with no real proof of its credibility. Thats faith. These same Christians deny evolution happened even when evidence is shown to them.  Hard, current evidence with scientific backing.

wait, so thats what I'll do....do whatever the heck I want while I live. and be one of those remorseful christians on my deathbed and beg for forgiveness. According to the rules....that works...so.....Whoo! Party time for the next..65 years 

Original Post by coffincritter:

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

eternal torment seems a bit out of line, as far as punishments go

especially to call oneself 'merciful' and 'loving' and then dish out eternal torment as a consequence?

 

There are a few things I don't understand about the Christian concept of Hell, as it was explained to me by the born-again First Assembly kids in Phoenix:

1)There are no degrees of sin. There's a passage in the Bible that says even thinking of committing adultery is the same as actually doing it. And the punishment is eternal damnation no matter what the transgression. So not only does the adulterer recieve the same punishment as one who "lusts in their heart" a la Jimmy Carter, but according to this theory, Gandhi is recieving the same fate for not being a Christian as Hitler is for mass genocide.

2)There is also the theory that no matter WHAT you do, you TOTALLY escape punishment altogether if you only accept Christ. So, if Dahmer had accepted Christ before his death he totally would get off scott-free for murder and cannibalism, while his victims would be doomed to Hell if they hadn't.

None of this seems fair at all.

 According to this same southern Baptist group I mentioned, if you accept Christ your good, game over. It doesn't matter what you do afterward. According to them there are levels of reward in heaven. I guess your mansion may or may not have a pool or it may be next to a railroad track or something. Wonder where they got that?

Original Post by seratuki:

wait, so thats what I'll do....do whatever the heck I want while I live. and be one of those remorseful christians on my deathbed and beg for forgiveness. According to the rules....that works...so.....Whoo! Party time for the next..65 years 

 Not exactly.  The way most Christian beliefs are,  you have to mean it.  Really really mean it.  Obviously you can't really fool God.  You can go through life being bad and hope you are lucky enough to get a deathbed to beg for forgiveness from, but if you are not sincere, then it won't mean a darn thing.  Good try though.  I thought the same thing when I was about 5 years old. 

lol...I was kidding anyway...I'm not that deluded.

BUT, I have to wonder...what about all those people who were raised in different religions? They go to hell just because they were taught something different? that doesn't seem fair....

Those people believe just as strongly as Christians do, it seems unfair and downright cruel to them to be proven wrong after so long and be sent to hell...

Thats not really a god I want to know if that's the case.

Original Post by peaches0405:

Original Post by seratuki:

wait, so thats what I'll do....do whatever the heck I want while I live. and be one of those remorseful christians on my deathbed and beg for forgiveness. According to the rules....that works...so.....Whoo! Party time for the next..65 years 

 Not exactly.  The way most Christian beliefs are,  you have to mean it.  Really really mean it.  Obviously you can't really fool God.  You can go through life being bad and hope you are lucky enough to get a deathbed to beg for forgiveness from, but if you are not sincere, then it won't mean a darn thing.  Good try though.  I thought the same thing when I was about 5 years old. 

 I'm sure you've heard of Pascal's Wager. Someone asked me that even if I didnt believe in god, wouldnt it be safer to believe just in case. Now I don't think I can "fake" believe in something and as Peaches said, would it "count". Look at all the death row inmates that "find god".  Humph!

and, for the record...

I'm sure, faced with death...I would really really mean it.....

Anyone would! faced at deaths door....ANYONE would reallllllly realllly believe in God at that point. It's like those people who pray when they're scared or somehow afraid they're going to die....say, those in a car crash...they pray as it's happening because they're afriad they're going to die...at that point, they REALLY mean it, no matter how religious they were the rest of the time.

So, that theory is flawed as well....

Original Post by seratuki:

Anyone would! faced at deaths door....ANYONE would reallllllly realllly believe in God at that point.

Not necessarily.

Original Post by seratuki:

Anyone would! faced at deaths door....ANYONE would reallllllly realllly believe in God at that point.

 Well, that's the theory behind "there are no atheists in foxholes", which is blatantly false.  Not everyone cries out to a deity when faced with death or fear.

But the point is a good one:  Any omniscient diety that actually cares about who and how humans worship should be able to tell the difference between an honest believer and someone acting out of calculated self interest. 

Original Post by fortius:

Original Post by falconer33:

During my time at a Southern Baptist school in Georgia I asked the Bible teacher a simple question, "what happens to all those who never heard of Jesus? The Aztecs, Myans, American Indians, etc, etc." His answer...hell.

Have you read Dante's Inferno? In it, Limbo is the place where the virtuous pagans lived, such as Virgil, Saladin, and Ovid.

Apparently there is something called the Virtuous Pagan.

Limbo was a Catholic teaching, at least until recently when Pope Bendict randomly decided there was no such thing as Limbo anymore:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1613390,00.html

No word on Purgatory though. It should be noted though that Evangelical Christians never believed in Limbo or Purgatory.

okay...well...anyone I know would...lets just say I've seen it first-hand.

and at that point, they really meant it.

But, I will admit to being....biased....my boyfriend was born female and lives his life as male...so, technically that makes the relationship between us, reason enough to burn in hell....so, I doubt anyone could convince me the bible is right, as that means I would have to lose Taylor...I would rather burn in hell...in all honesty.

Original Post by seratuki:

and, for the record...

I'm sure, faced with death...I would really really mean it.....

Anyone would! faced at deaths door....ANYONE would reallllllly realllly believe in God at that point. It's like those people who pray when they're scared or somehow afraid they're going to die....say, those in a car crash...they pray as it's happening because they're afriad they're going to die...at that point, they REALLY mean it, no matter how religious they were the rest of the time.

So, that theory is flawed as well....

um, no.  i've been in car accidents, i've had moments when i thought death was imminent, and i did not suddenly believe, nor did i pray.

i did have a moment, when a close friend was in neurosurgical intensive care with a fractured skull, when i thought tha it would be nice to believe in god, so that i could pray and feel better.  but i didn't believe, so there was no part of me that actually wanted to pray.  and since then i've been through health crises--my own, as well as those of family and friends--and no part of me has thought that prayer would have any effect.

I feel like I'm constantly trying to figure out what my beliefs are.  I don't like organized religion, and I don't think there's a God, but I do have some spiritual beliefs that are hard to explain.

My family is Catholic, and I am decidedly not.  I never understood why men could be priests and women couldn't.  Can I not have a close relationship with God because I have a vagina?  That makes perfect sense.  Also, if I lead a good life and am a good person, but don't believe in God, I automatically go to Hell?  What kind of justice is that?  What kind of compassionate God sends good people to suffer because of one mistake?

If I'm wrong and there is a God, I hope he or she is nothing like the picture society has painted.