RIP Dr. Tiller

I really don't have the words to describe what I'm feeling right now that won't get censored.  I've been fearing that this might start to happen again. 

For anyone on here who might work at a clinic: please be alert, review any safety procedures you have, and stay safe.

In every state where capital punishment is governed by the rule of law, yes.

Just because it is governed by the rule of law does not make it morally or ethically correct.  Capital punishment is what separates the USA from civilized societies.

Original Post by trhawley:

Just because it is governed by the rule of law does not make it morally or ethically correct.  Capital punishment is what separates the USA from civilized societies.

 How do you figure?  Capital punishment has nothing to do with this rogue nutjob deciding that something that someone was doing legally made it ok for him to die.

Original Post by trhawley:

Just because it is governed by the rule of law does not make it morally or ethically correct.  Capital punishment is what separates the USA from civilized societies.

 How do you reconcile being pro-choice and anti-death penalty? Or am I making a presumption?

Original Post by kathygator:

Original Post by trhawley:

Just because it is governed by the rule of law does not make it morally or ethically correct.  Capital punishment is what separates the USA from civilized societies.

 How do you reconcile being pro-choice and anti-death penalty? Or am I making a presumption?

 Because of how I view the start of life.  Some people believe that it begins when a man and woman get a twinkle in their eye.  For others, it begins at conception.  Others still define the start of life as birth.  I believe that it starts at birth but I define birth as the point where there is a viable fetus that has either gestated full term or needs to be delivered out of medical necessity.

Late term abortion, the so called crime of Dr. Tillman does not conflict with my personal beliefs because late term abortions are not used as a method of birth control.  They are performed when medically necessary.

In my perfect world late term abortions would be the only type of abortions that are ever performed because there would not be any unplanned pregnancies.  Men and women would have complete control over reproduction so abortions would only be performed when it was medically necessary.  As it is though, I don't think any man or woman should be forced into parenthood.  Currently, with the exception of abstinence, only women have that right.  We should fight to maintain that right and work to extend that same right to men.

Original Post by kathygator:

 How do you reconcile being pro-choice and anti-death penalty?

 EXACTLY. There are so many "pro-lifers" (when it comes to abortion, anyway) who are vehemently pro death penalty. Yet they don't see the hypocrisy in that view.

I'm not getting into the personal views of those of us on this thread. Just saying "in real life" I've encountered many folks who fall into this category of anti-abortion and pro-death-penalty, and I don't get it. I just don't.

One can't live by ones religious views yet not by the law of the US. Well, obviously the guy who murdered Dr. Tiller did exactly that. However if every person in the country did that, we'd have more chaos than we do already. Laws exist for a reason. Abortion is not illegal (yet - *shudder*). Gunning someone down because you want to (ala murder of Dr. Tiller) is illegal.

Were I to adopt the viewpoint of this particular murderer who gunned down Dr. Tiller, it could go something like this. My religion dictates that I am to slaughter a precious little puppy every day of the week. So I'm going to go around taking puppies from my neighbors, shelters, pet stores and so on, and slaughter them at my house on a daily basis. But it's okay, because that's what my religion tells me to do...

That's how absurd this line of reasoning is.

I am also pro-choice and anti death penalty. I believe that when a viable fetus has brain waves that make them human that life has begun. Before that there is life in that the cells are alive, but it is not yet a human being. I don't have a problem with late term abortions, because as stated above they are not used as birth control. They are only performed when medically necessary.

I don't believe the death penalty is used justly. It is not a deterrent. It is overly expensive and it is used mostly on the poor, uneducated and minorities. How is that justice? Just take a look at how many people on death row have been vindicated by DNA evidence in the last ten years. I really don't even want to think about how many innocent people have been put to death by the state over the years.

Edit to add:  I think it is harder to recocile someone being pro-life and pro death penalty.

Yes, I agree w/ you moonikins. I can see clearly being pro-choice and anti death penalty.

But not so much being pro-life and pro death penalty. Which is something I see quite a lot in the bible belt where I live...

I guess my above rant didn't really relate to the statement of kathygator but I got all riled up anyway. Oops...

While I certainly understand that because it's not foolproof, the system is flawed, I can think of a few people that I honestly believe deserved to die. Bundy and McVeigh come immediately to mind. Bundy's death may not have deterred serial killers, but we can be absolutely certain it deterred him.

In the case of McVeigh, he got what he wanted. It would have been a far harsher punishment for him if he had gotten life in prison with no parole and no more public attention as well. No interviews with the media. Nothing but a single cell with no outside contact.

I am pro-choice but I think that the decision must be made early in the pregnancy and late-term abortion should be used only as a last resort if and only if the mother's life would be in danger if the pregnancy were allowed to continue.  As for the death penalty, I am currently pro-death penalty but I'd have no problem with abolishing it if the criminal had to serve the entire life sentence or whatever.  Too many times I've heard of criminals sentenced to 20 years only to be released in 10 or 15 for "good behavior."  Good behavior?  I'm sorry but it was bad behavior that got them there in the first place.  I someone is sentenced to 20 years in prison, he/she should not spend one day less than that in prision, and if a life sentence, then that person should never again draw breath outside of the prison.  Then and only then would I support abolishing the death penalty.  JMO

There are two sentences for life in prison. There is life in prison with the possibility of parole and there is life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Prisoners often serve less than their full sentence because their full sentence was something like "20 years with the possibility of parole". If you don't want prisoners to be offered parole, then take that up with your state legislatures. One of the reasons why parole is offered is because it is a carrot to offer to get the prisoners to behave well in prison. Some may think this isn't a good idea, but I see the practicality in it.

Original Post by moonikins:

There are two sentences for life in prison. There is life in prison with the possibility of parole and there is life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Prisoners often serve less than their full sentence because their full sentence was something like "20 years with the possibility of parole". If you don't want prisoners to be offered parole, then take that up with your state legislatures. One of the reasons why parole is offered is because it is a carrot to offer to get the prisoners to behave well in prison. Some may think this isn't a good idea, but I see the practicality in it.

 I know all of this, but I still say that the only way I could support abolishing the death penalty is to put murderers away for the rest of their lives.  Do not pass Go, Do NOT collect $200. 

Original Post by caverlady:

Original Post by moonikins:

There are two sentences for life in prison. There is life in prison with the possibility of parole and there is life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Prisoners often serve less than their full sentence because their full sentence was something like "20 years with the possibility of parole". If you don't want prisoners to be offered parole, then take that up with your state legislatures. One of the reasons why parole is offered is because it is a carrot to offer to get the prisoners to behave well in prison. Some may think this isn't a good idea, but I see the practicality in it.

 I know all of this, but I still say that the only way I could support abolishing the death penalty is to put murderers away for the rest of their lives.  Do not pass Go, Do NOT collect $200. 

 Then contact your state legislatures and lobby for this.

Regardless, in the case of persons sentenced to death, it is done with full access to due process, flawed as it may be. It is not logical to make the leap that what Roeder did was justifiable simply because it was morally correct to him.

I'm cool with offing Roeder for this.

ditto.

edit to add: as long as he is afforded due process. ;)

Of course, some people who've been agitating for exactly this outcome in public should now go on their show and report that their campaign against Tiller has met with outstanding success.

Bill O'Reilly is a waste of band width.

I sincerely hope that Dr. Tiller's family sues Bill O'Reilly for wrongful death.