Sexual Harassment - what to do?

Ok I realized as I was posting in the waitor/waitress thread, I get sexually harrassed a lot. More than average, I'd guess. But then again, is there really an average amount of harrassment?

I can't figure it out. I don't dress provocatively, I don't have an overly curvy or sexy body, I don't flirt. Actually, I joke with my guy friends all the time that I'm a terrible flirt and they agree. I'm friendly, I smile a lot, I make conversation easily. But I get harassed all the time! I get it at my job so much! Men that I'm waiting on will make comments about me or patronize me. It's very off putting. I was on a bus the other day and the man sitting next to me and I were politely talking (I'm 18, he was 27). All of the sudden about an hour into the 4 hour bus ride he tells me he finds me incredibly sexy and beautiful. I didn't know what to do!!

Men: what am I doing to spur on all this unwanted attention? 

Women: How do you react to these situations? Where is the line and what do you do when someone crosses it?

Original Post by lafoutloud01:

Ok ok, let me clarify things.

The bus situation I felt uncomfortable because I am a young girl in close proximity with a man much older than me who told me I was sexy. I'm not saying he was harassing me, necessarily, but I felt uncomfortable and didn't know how to handle it.

At my job, I'm not complaining about the customers who call me "cutie" or tell me I have nice eyes. I'm complaining about the customers who touch my butt. Or these two men who called me over a couple days ago when I wasn't doing anything, dropped a fork on the floor and told me to bend over to pick it up. I think that qualifies as harassment, no?

yes it does, BUT and a big BUT here. What are you going to do about it? Have you told your boss and is he ignoring you. Have you told the customers that you don't appreciate the way you are being treated. You have to stop the situation FIRST. If you get no help with the employer then you have a case. It's really all about that. So if you are not willing to "go" through with a complaint all the way you basically are just going to loose hours, better tables, get grunt work etc. etc. etc. Of course if that does happen you have a classic case, but you will have to drag the company into court. Chances are the clowns who are actually doing the harassing just go somewhere else to eat. Which is what the manager should tell them in the first place. Do you work for a large corp. or a small business owner? It's much more complicated than just saying I've been harassed and everything is just great then. This is why major sexual harassment issues never dawn a court room. It's hard to prove and usually the "victim" gets more hassle fighting it than just dealing with it.

HK, your right it is BULL*hit. I know of a case where some young men were "offended" by the music that was being piped in and had a religious harassment case. Most large corps. just settle out of court so their name isn't dragged through the mud on national tv. Most complainants are really just looking for a quick buck and arn't really offended all that much. The really justifiable cases usually don't ever get to trial. The one that really scared the corps was the Clarance Thomas case.

laf: you tell them you don't appreciate it. If someone doesn't know your not interested that's not their fault. There are some creeps, get mace or if the law allows tazor. I'd sign up for self defense classes if your in that situation often.

It's pretty hard with my job because I work for a small business owner and I'm under the table. I'm the only waitress so it's not like I could even pass off those customers. I was so flabbergasted I didn't know what to say to the men when it happened. 

My restauraunt is a bagel shop/breakfast restauraunt. We offer waitress service (that's me) but also about half the business is people going up front and ordering to go. Next time they come in I'm going to tell them not to sit at my table and instead to go up front. I'll forgo the $10 tip on a $15 meal because honestly, it was ridiculous.

In my post my definition of sexual harrasment is my opinion personally. I am sure everyone has their own definition. According to a workplace I am sure the any kind of sexual connotation is against their policy and sure any woman could probably file a report at any job and get a male co-worker or customer in trouble. I don't think it is always right though. I would never report anything unless it was just completely inappropriate to me personally and that person would not stop after being made aware I was uncomfortable and I would report them if they didn't stop. If it is a customer I would tell my manager I was uncomfortable and I have a great manager at the restaurant where I work who would gladly handle the situation for me.  A male would have to really be after me, touching me inappropraite, making to many crude sexual remarks. I would have to be the my own judge of that as to weather I would report it but I am certainly not one of those woman who is going to run and report every little sexual thing and get people in trouble. Men are men and they are very sexual. I have just accepted that there are a lot of men who are going to behave inappropriate and think they aren't doing anything seriously over the line.

lafoutloud-In these incidents you have to judge for yourself weather you want to report them. Yes they are wrong for what these men have done and if this is really bothing you then make a report and your management doesn't take your reports seriously, I would look into another restaurant or workplace that doesn't tolerate this behavior.

Original Post by lafoutloud01:

It's pretty hard with my job because I work for a small business owner and I'm under the table. I'm the only waitress so it's not like I could even pass off those customers. I was so flabbergasted I didn't know what to say to the men when it happened. 

My restauraunt is a bagel shop/breakfast restauraunt. We offer waitress service (that's me) but also about half the business is people going up front and ordering to go. Next time they come in I'm going to tell them not to sit at my table and instead to go up front. I'll forgo the $10 tip on a $15 meal because honestly, it was ridiculous.

I think you have a plan, now stick to it.

Original Post by petitechick:

In my post my definition of sexual harrasment is my opinion personally. I am sure everyone has their own definition. According to a workplace I am sure the any kind of sexual connotation is against their policy and sure any woman could probably file a report at any job and get a male co-worker or customer in trouble. I don't think it is always right though. I would never report anything unless it was just completely inappropriate to me personally and that person would not stop after being made aware I was uncomfortable and I would report them if they didn't stop. If it is a customer I would tell my manager I was uncomfortable and I have a great manager at the restaurant where I work who would gladly handle the situation for me.  A male would have to really be after me, touching me inappropraite, making to many crude sexual remarks. I would have to be the my own judge of that as to weather I would report it but I am certainly not one of those woman who is going to run and report every little sexual thing and get people in trouble. Men are men and they are very sexual. I have just accepted that there are a lot of men who are going to behave inappropriate and think they aren't doing anything seriously over the line.

lafoutloud-In these incidents you have to judge for yourself weather you want to report them. Yes they are wrong for what these men have done and if this is really bothing you then make a report and your management doesn't take your reports seriously, I would look into another restaurant or workplace that doesn't tolerate this behavior.

you know women don't just report these things to get people in trouble. You have to get out of your own world and realize everyone is not like you. It does really upset some women. Certain life experiences, I believe, cause women or men to feel sensitive to sexual attention, however small. I personally don't get upset at all over comments, dirty jokes, or even the swipe across the bottom, now other kinds of touching etc. would make me unnerved but not really panicked, but it DOES to many women. So you have to look at the population as a whole when protecting a company or an individual. It shouldn't be up to the individual to have to find other work, what if it's a great job with good benefits for his/her family and he/she is forced to give it up because of someone else inappropriate behavior? So then children go without health insurance? Poor argument.

Original Post by emer13:

These comments are infuriating! If it's unwanted, it's not a compliment, it's harrassment. Period.

Period?  Oh, really? 

Original Post by r4eboxer:

you know women don't just report these things to get people in trouble.You have to get out of your own world and realize everyone is not like you. It does really upset some women. Certain life experiences, I believe, cause women or men to feel sensitive to sexual attention, however small. I personally don't get upset at all over comments, dirty jokes, or even the swipe across the bottom, now other kinds of touching etc. would make me unnerved but not really panicked, but it DOES to many women. So you have to look at the population as a whole when protecting a company or an individual. It shouldn't be up to the individual to have to find other work, what if it's a great job with good benefits for his/her family and he/she is forced to give it up because of someone else inappropriate behavior? So then children go without health insurance? Poor argument.

 I understand what you are saying and I agree that anything should be reported if the woman is feeling sexually violated even by the tiniest bit. I simply stated I am a woman who would take a lot before I would report it. I never stated or implied that all woman are like me.

One of the things she asked in her original post was how other woman here would handle sexual harrassment and I gave how I would and do. 

 

^ We agree. I have wondered why some women get so upset over comments. I do think it must be how we were raised and life experiences. I remember one time I had to have a talk with a male employee about his comments and behavior ( I secretly think some of the people complaining just didn't like him) anyway I talked to him and he called HR on ME saying he was being falsely accused. I was like good heavens I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

Ok, good. I am sorry if anything I wrote was offensive. I have to remember back when I was 18. I am almost 30 now. At 18 I would have been very upset by the tiniest sexual remark. I wasn't used to any kind of attention from men. I wasn't attractive enough to get it very much and I mostly worked with people who were decent men and never made me feel weird or anything. Now from ageing and from working in a restaurant I guess I have gotten used to the way men are and it takes a lot for me to get really upset enough to do something about it. I have never experienced any man chronically harassing me, just comments here and there and a few touches or as you said swipes but nowhere too inappropriate. I guess if I was in the OP's shoes I would be really upset by this behavior.

Original Post by lafoutloud01:

Ok ok, let me clarify things.

The bus situation I felt uncomfortable because I am a young girl in close proximity with a man much older than me who told me I was sexy. I'm not saying he was harassing me, necessarily, but I felt uncomfortable and didn't know how to handle it.

At my job, I'm not complaining about the customers who call me "cutie" or tell me I have nice eyes. I'm complaining about the customers who touch my butt. Or these two men who called me over a couple days ago when I wasn't doing anything, dropped a fork on the floor and told me to bend over to pick it up. I think that qualifies as harassment, no?

Ok, they're touching you, that's WRONG. I would firmly tell the customers that you don't want to be touched. Report what is happening to management. It is part of a business owner's responsibility to make sure that there is not a hostile work enviornment for employees.

"You're a girl, get used to it" is total BS. You have every right to stand up and say "I do not wish to be treated this way". Your gender is not an excuse for someone else to act like an @$$. Would someone tell a black person "You may as well get used to those Klansmen over there"?

When I was 19 I worked in a store where the day manager took me into the basement one day to inform me of two things: That he was a 28 year old virgin and that he had a crush on me. (what does the status of someone's virginity have to do with working retail anyway?) From that day on was a non stop barrage of head games and innapropriate comments including: jokes about pimping me out to customers, loudly announcing that he was going into the bathroom to masturbate and sending me to clean the bathroom afterwards, and graphically describing his first sexual encounter with a prostitute, like I cared. I put in a transfer to work in the midtown branch of the store and when he found out he fired me. I told my Dad about what had been happening and he informed me that it was illegal (at 19 I didn't know that!) and that NOW offered free legal services to women who had been sexually harrassed so I went to them. I don't know if they still offer the service but you might want to google them and see, if it comes to that.

I will admit when I read your initial post I thought it was a "brag-complaint",(which is a whole other story) but there is a distinction between a compliment and what these guys are doing. Your later post cleared up what was going on. Learn to express what you will and will not tolerate. You can be firm with the customers and still do it in a professional manner.

Original Post by petitechick:

Ok, good. I am sorry if anything I wrote was offensive. I have to remember back when I was 18. I am almost 30 now. At 18 I would have been very upset by the tiniest sexual remark. I wasn't used to any kind of attention from men. I wasn't attractive enough to get it very much and I mostly worked with people who were decent men and never made me feel weird or anything. Now from ageing and from working in a restaurant I guess I have gotten used to the way men are and it takes a lot for me to get really upset enough to do something about it. I have never experienced any man chronically harassing me, just comments here and there and a few touches or as you said swipes but nowhere too inappropriate. I guess if I was in the OP's shoes I would be really upset by this behavior.

I didn't take anything you wrote as offensive. I was just "talking" I have experience with this subject and when I first had to address it, I kind of felt like "Why do people make a big deal out of it?" then I was educated as to what some women have to tolerate and how upset some really get, it makes some companies loose really good employees over it. ie: they just quit and the manager is left wondering why. It's really hard to find good help. So I guess I was just putting down what I had learned over the years. I could have left out the poor argument part. Sorry.

Post #30, I'm going to take a gander that you're referring to me.

Let me just make a point, when I was saying "get used to it" I wasn't implying a woman should get used to inappropriate grabbing. For that, whip out the mace (which I mentioned in my post), or file a lawsuit, depending on how severe it is.

As far as a random guy hitting on you  (which is what I consider being called beautiful or sexy), yea...get used to it. You can't get offended by every guy that calls you beautiful/sexy/hot, that's going to happen a lot...that just happens. Am I wrong? Is that not a normal occurrence?

If they give you a verbal compliment, accept it graciously.
If they give you a vulgar insult, tell them to "**** off".
If they touch you, pepper spray their eyeballs.

Original Post by jblarghp:

Post #30, I'm going to take a gander that you're referring to me.

Let me just make a point, when I was saying "get used to it" I wasn't implying a woman should get used to inappropriate grabbing. For that, whip out the mace (which I mentioned in my post), or file a lawsuit, depending on how severe it is.

As far as a random guy hitting on you  (which is what I consider being called beautiful or sexy), yea...get used to it. You can't get offended by every guy that calls you beautiful/sexy/hot, that's going to happen a lot...that just happens. Am I wrong? Is that not a normal occurrence?

Ok, it wasn't clear since it followed the post about men grabbing her butt, I thought it referred to that.

Being hit on is normal, though I don't think there should be an excuse for the type of guy who persists once the girl has said "no". It doesn't sound like the bus guy was being like that though.

Yea, sorry. After reading it I can see how it could be misconstrued.

I find that women on the whole prefer it when I compliment them for being frumpy and homely.

You are doing nothing to invoke this behavior out of men. Do not blame yourself.

Men are brought up differently than women. They are more comfortable with their sexuality than women are with their own sexuality. Up until the most recent decades in the US men basically owned women and women had very few rights.

You will get more comfortable with your sexuality as you get a little older. You will get used to men being sexual around you and other women. There are some things you can do to minimize uncomfortable situations.

In social settings like the bus ride or else where, you can try to choose seats away from men. If you have to sit next to one, you can act distant and cold, avoiding eye contact. Of course if you do this, you might hear "b1tch" muttered in your direction. If you are naturally friendly and smile, you will get more attention. If you don't feel comfortable acting cold and distant, you'll need to get good at deflecting unwanted attention, such as mentioning a boyfriend, or laughing at comments, or acting like you didn't notice the compliment or come on. With men older than you, it usually helps to mention that they remind you of your brother/uncle/father/grandfather.

It's a little harder in your work setting, as you don't want to lose tips or get fired. You mentioned the guy who dropped the fork so he could watch you bend over, here's some alternatives:  1) Place your foot on the fork and move it across the floor away from the men. Make sure you are facing the men and then crouch down to pick it up by bending your knees and keep your back straight so you are not allowing any peakage into your cleavage. Keep your eyes on them the whole time. They'll get the hint. They may laugh amongst themselves, but now they know you can't be played. 2) Look at them sweetly and tell them you'll get it later when you're less busy (even if you aren't busy now). 3) Tell them that you bend over for no one. This can be done playfully or with a sharp tone in your voice, depending on the message you want/need to send.

Do you have a good relationship with your boss? Can you ask him what you should do when a customer tries to grab your butt? Tell him you don't want to make a scene or offend the customers, but that you want to know what he thinks you should do.

Here are some links about sexual harassment in the workplace (or at school)

EEOC Sexual Harrassment page

Sexual Harassment 911

Your employer is obligated to ensure that your work environment is not hostile.  But you have to tell them about any problems so they can address them.  Also, I suggest that you document everything that happens in a journal including dates and times - I can't overemphasize how much this will help you should you ever find yourself in a legal proceeding.  (unlikely with a small business owner, but not unheard of)

and lafoutloud, re the older guy on the bus, i totally know what you mean.  I got that too when i was young, and not just from guys seven years older than me, but from guys in their 40s and 50s - GROSS!  It made me feel uncomfortable and threatened.  I didn't know what to do either, but I would definitely get away from them at my first opportunity.

And guys, when you think you're complimenting a girl much younger than you, please just don't.  Or if you must, make it a compliment that you would offer in the presence of her father.  You don't know who has been raped or sexually assaulted (1 out of 6 women) or how long ago it might have happened and your attention is not appropriate unless she clearly and unmistakably invites it by offering you such a compliment.  Just because she is 20, does not mean she is 'fair game' -- she doesn't want an old coot like you anyway. (this only applies to flirting with a younger age cohort - generally interacting with people from your own age cohort won't feel threatening, all else being equal)

Socially: On the bus...I never take the bus anymore, too many old smelly men trying to chat me up...if you have a bag or a back pack, place it in the seat next to yours.  Then no one will sit next to you unless the bus is already full or fills up.  This is simple preventative caution.  As a young lady, you do want to take whatever precautions you can.  If the bus starts to fill up, try offering up the seat with the backpack to someone that you think will be fine to sit next to you.  As you gain more experience with people in general and men in particular you will feel more comfortable and instead of feeling like you need a shower, you'll feel like you've accomplished something by deflecting the unwanted attention in the manner that you choose to.

Older men...they really do think that they have a chance with you and will sound you out to see how receptive you are...personally I have nothing other than a friendly interest in men who are 20 years older than I am, but 10 years might be of interest depending.  It's not unrealistic and it can happen, so it's not unreasonable for them to try checking if you have any interest in them.  Depending on whether or not they're offensive and whether or not you wish to create a scene, you can try humor to deflect them.  There's nothing wrong with a compliment, accept it as graciously as you can, but don't lean in towards them or continue flirting with them even mildly.  Leaning towards them or flirting mildly sends a message that you're interested even when you're not.  Just thank them graciously and if you want to add emphasis, metion that your bf/spouse/parents/grandparents also admire/say that about you.  The point being that they are too old for you, but you don't wish to be rude.  99% of them will back off at this point and return to just friendly conversation or leave you alone.  For the 1% that don't you, can continue with saying that this conversation is making you uncomfortable or that you feel it is inappropriate.  The louder you say this, the more uncomfortable they'll be.  Another way to make the point is to be prim and proper and say something to the effect of, please don't say anything to me that I wouldn't want my mother/grandmother to hear.

Another method is to just not back down.  I was dancing with a man who told me that dancing was better than sex.  I told him that he was doing it wrong.  If you take this method, you have to be prepared for things to escalate (usually they don't), but it doesn't open the door to being more blunt.  At 34, I'm much more comfortable having conversations about sex and sexuality than I would have been in my late teens and early 20s.  Generally the men are too astonished that a woman can talk calmly about sex to continue escalating although occasionally it does happen, probably not something to try in your early 20s with men.

At work: It was extremely rude for them to drop a piece of silverware just so they could watch you bend over.  I would have pushed it out of the walkway with my foot and mentioned that I'd get it later.  Alternatively I would have said that I'd send someone out to get it and found a man to do it.  You can also tell them that if they want to watch a peep show to go to the strip club.

For those touching you, there are limits and boundaries.  Actually, if you prefer not be touched at all, even on the arm, just mention it mildly.  For those who try to pat your rear end, you can try avoiding them, but that usually doesn't make your point.  You can just look at them and ask that they not do that (typically they're just being stupid and this will make them think about what they're doing).  You can look at them and ask them why they just did that.  You can say this is not a strip club.  You can make a joke about it or accidentally step on them or spill something on them.  Honestly, I wouldn't even dream of harassing the person that's bringing me my food for fear that they might spit on it or something, but it takes all kinds of idiots to make the world go around.

I never get sexually harassed :(