Shame, guilt, and personal responsibility - the effects on weight loss

It's all my fault, I did this to myself, I just need to quit eating so much, I just want a pity party, and on and on and on. The never ending comments meant to induce personal responisibility and guilt. It's a fun time. I'm obese because I ate too much and have poor willpower. Yes, and the problem with alcoholics is that they drink too much, yet as a society, we seem much more informed of the complexities of alcoholism than those of obesity.

Guilt and shame hinder weight loss efforts. Percieved responsibility for one's obese 'condition'is in no way sufficient to motivate weight loss, and in one study, the 'personal responsibility' group did no better at weight loss than the control (i.e. no treatment) group (Tobias & MacDonald, 1977). Yep, we've known it for that long, and the clinical community seems to have accepted it. The everyday person? Not even close.

And let's not forget the myth that genetics is bunk and purely an excuse used by the obese to stay obese. Does it really matter than it's been supported by every research effort studying it? I suppose not. And the excuse bit? Turns out those informed of the genetic link find it has a 'relieving' effect that promotes realistic weight loss goals and greater satisfaction with weight loss. Those who were big in self-blame and negative feelings about current weight are most likely to fail at weight loss efforts, and the 'genetics talk,' reduces these feelings (Conradt et al, 2009). So it's true and useful? Now I'm just talking crazy.

Oh, and personality traits aren't related to weight loss. Not even the lazy, unmotivated ones (Poston et al, 1999). Nor is locus of control (whether one thinks they control their live, or the environment does) (Hankins & Hopkins, 1978).

Did you know the differences between the obese and not go beyond weight? Obese people can recall more items after brief exposure, make fewer errors in complex reaction time tasks, and perform these tasks faster. Some studies also find that obese people solve critical thinking problems faster. However, obese people are slower to solve problems if they need to change strategies mid test, the tend to make the same process apply much longer than they should. This is thought to be based on the idea that the obese react more strongly to external cues, and that they have a deficit in response inhibition. Could also explain the eating for longer/more bit, since research shows that the obese don't eat more often, just more at each sitting (Singh, 1973). Of course, what's the cause and effect here? It's possible our fat content is just messing with our brain, but it's also possible that cognitive differences can effect one's eating habits and therefore weight.

In any case, shame and guilt inhibit weight loss, personal responsibility has no effect, and informing obese people that it might not be all their fault has a (*gasp*) positive effect.

Remember that next time you want to tell someone how they got into their own situation. At best, it's a practice of futility. At worst, one of demotivation and hindrance to weight loss.

And one more thing: Many of us 'obese' got here as the summation of weight gain from rebounding from extreme diets. You know, those stupid fad bits where immediately after stopping you gain more than you lost? So one might say we became obese from efforts to not be overweight. Ironic, eh?

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way stating that anyone is incapable of losing weight. Or anything else offensive. I am not rejecting the calories in/calories out equation. I am not attacking any particular group of people. I believe when people make comments attributing blame or responsibility to overweight individuals, that they honestly believe it is helpful. Research and experience says that it is not. This is a discussion on a particular de-motivator to weight loss. Citations are available in my journal, I would be happy to email full articles to interested individuals.

EDIT: Emphasis added to the point of the topic. Disclaimer expanded. And a corrected typo.

Oh I noticed the other ones to...you were just posting more...so that's why I asked what was the point you were focusing on.

And really, it's good to debate ideas.  We are all here to be healthy...and looking at other peoples viewpoints and thinking about our own thoughts and beliefs is part of this process.  It was your posts that made me want to post and see what the real issues where with this post.  That's a good thing.  No ill feelings here.  I hope you have a good day and know that maybe you got people thinking by doing some arguing and debating....afterall...that's what these forums are about...to think about issues. 

Original Post by musicalfishmich:

and just as a quick example, i posted this as a topic earlier today..:

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2009/06/18/o vereating/index.html

 

an article interviewing the former head of the Food and Drug Administration.

It's an interesting article, and I agree with most of it so far (haven't finished the whole thing yet). However, in the very beginning the interviewer asks Kessler, "What do you think is the biggest misconceptions about why people overeat?"and Kessler responds "That it's a matter of willpower, that you can just use self-control. I think a lot of people don't understand why it's so hard to resist food." He goes on to blame the current environment for the rising obesity trend, and explain why most diets don't work.

I can't see how this is in any way in conflict with what the OP was saying - in fact, Kessler seems to attribute a great deal of the obesity issue to external factors. Mind you, I am in no way saying that it is healthier to be fat, or that fat people shouldn't try to lose weight, and I don't think that the OP was either. That is a no-brainer. Just that I can't see how feeling bad about yourself is productive or a good way to live your life in general.

Oh, and hero6, I don't really think that personal attacks are called for in this situation. And many people would find the term "fatty" offensive.

I also don't see the need for anger over this post, but perhaps my perception is less subjective, since I have not read any of the OP's other posts. This post itself is well thought out, and does not appear to be a rant or offensive in any nature. What I gathered from this post was that the OP was conveying the link between guilt, motivation, and weight loss/obesity. This is and of itself is not offensive, in my opinion. There may or may not be some preconceptions that other posters may be attaching to it, but I, personally, would keep a cool head and an open mind about posts that could possibly be positive and informative if allowed to. Just my two cents.

Original Post by minda_spk:

Remember that next time you want to tell someone how they got into their own situation. At best, it's a practice of futility. At worst, one of demotivation and hindrance to weight loss.

I guess I'm going to start with: I am a fatty who loves herself, and I am simultaneously trying to lose weight. I know it's against the rules of our society, yet, here I am anyway.

Minda, I appreciate the research you have given us on this post, no matter your supposed "agenda". Your post is easily as interesting as the Kessler-post that Musicalfish posted, and I don't see how they are in opposition. It's nice to have some research to back up what I already believed - telling people that they're fat and it's all their fault isn't actually helpful! Big shock.

Perhaps some don't appreciate your gift for sarcasm. Can't please everybody, right?

Original Post by theholla:

Original Post by musicalfishmich:

and just as a quick example, i posted this as a topic earlier today..:

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2009/06/18/o vereating/index.html

 

an article interviewing the former head of the Food and Drug Administration.

It's an interesting article, and I agree with most of it so far (haven't finished the whole thing yet). However, in the very beginning the interviewer asks Kessler, "What do you think is the biggest misconceptions about why people overeat?"and Kessler responds "That it's a matter of willpower, that you can just use self-control. I think a lot of people don't understand why it's so hard to resist food." He goes on to blame the current environment for the rising obesity trend, and explain why most diets don't work.

I can't see how this is in any way in conflict with what the OP was saying - in fact, Kessler seems to attribute a great deal of the obesity issue to external factors. Mind you, I am in no way saying that it is healthier to be fat, or that fat people shouldn't try to lose weight, and I don't think that the OP was either. That is a no-brainer. Just that I can't see how feeling bad about yourself is productive or a good way to live your life in general.

Oh, and hero6, I don't really think that personal attacks are called for in this situation. And many people would find the term "fatty" offensive.

okay first of all - i do not disagree whatsoever about the fact that it isn't a matter of sheer willpower that does or does not hinder weight loss.  in that particular article, kessler does attribute the fact that the obesity epidemic is partially the fault of the way the food industry has shifted and americans have become accustomed to more sugar, larger portions, more fat, more processed foods, etc., etc. - however he also attributes it to the fact that just as much power is in the hands of each individual person to overcome the hoopla thrown out by the media and the food industry alike.  

if one is able to sift through all the B.S. involved in the OP's various posts, i don't disagree with the actual facts she is spouting, however in the end the whole vibe of the post comes across as though she is so on the defensive - now if her posts were composed less offensively and more objectively i believe there would be many more constructive responses from everyone, myself included.  

whether the OP is indeed on a quest to lose weight or not, i wish her only the best.  but i do wish she would cease to post these self-righteous topics that only seem to stir the pot...

sorry musicalfishmich, I just dont see your complaint.  You don't like her tone.  SO?

Really, there is only one solution - quit reading her posts.   You can not make her write as you like and she is not obligated to write in a way that is comfortable to you.

Frankly - I appreciate minda's posts.  The give me something to think about.  Now I do think minda has a mischievous streak.  I do think she is challenging some people to dig a little deeper into themselves and they dont like it. 

Original Post by madamq:

sorry musicalfishmich, I just dont see your complaint.  You don't like her tone.  SO?

Really, there is only one solution - quit reading her posts.   You can not make her write as you like and she is not obligated to write in a way that is comfortable to you.

Frankly - I appreciate minda's posts.  The give me something to think about.  Now I do think minda has a mischievous streak.  I do think she is challenging some people to dig a little deeper into themselves and they dont like it. 

 

and likewise, you and anyone else cannot make me stop responding in the way that I feel is appropriate to how they make me feel.  

and frankly i don't appreciate the OP's posts - and many other things besides one person's quest for (or not? can't figure that one out yet) weight loss give me things to think about.  

and all she is making me dig into is my patience, or lack there of, and aggravation. 

Yes...minda is the Martin Luther King of the obese.

Good fo' her.

Original Post by jblarghp:

Yes...minda is the Martin Luther King of the obese.

Good fo' her.

LOL!!

Original Post by sadinplaid:

Original Post by minda_spk:

Remember that next time you want to tell someone how they got into their own situation. At best, it's a practice of futility. At worst, one of demotivation and hindrance to weight loss.

I guess I'm going to start with: I am a fatty who loves herself, and I am simultaneously trying to lose weight. I know it's against the rules of our society, yet, here I am anyway.

Minda, I appreciate the research you have given us on this post, no matter your supposed "agenda". Your post is easily as interesting as the Kessler-post that Musicalfish posted, and I don't see how they are in opposition. It's nice to have some research to back up what I already believed - telling people that they're fat and it's all their fault isn't actually helpful! Big shock.

Perhaps some don't appreciate your gift for sarcasm. Can't please everybody, right?

 

 ^^^ I agree with the above , thanks minda :O)

Maybe minda IS trying to stir the pot. Look, she even establishes her arguments in quaint little paragraphs. What's the deal?

Minda, I agree with you. But in terms of productive weight loss, what it ultimately comes down to is a question of fate vs. free will. Of course some people have physical AND mental genes that make it harder for them to lose weight. In any aspect of life, select individuals will always be genetically superior. Sad, isn't it?

However, our society is based on the principle that everyone starts out with a clean slate. Everyone makes personal choices. Everyone has free will. And in social Darwinism, that's the way people think. No one cares if your genes suck or your childhood sucked or if your sucky mother kept shoving cake in your face as a little kid. There comes a time when one has to realize, "Gee, I better start taking responsibility for my own body." And even if it's not your fault, you bloody well better start pretending it is.

Now some people might feel better wailing about the genes they were born with, but personally I think it's more productive to accept yourself and move on. Free will is overpowering. Accept what you can't change. Change what you can.

Minda, ive been waiting for you to make another thread.  i like them, so keep 'em coming.

Also, Ive been dieting for over 10 years using the strategy of "I'll just blame and hate myself into losing weight." and guess what--I'm still trying to lose weight.  I never reached my goal.   You'd think that hating something would make you want to change, but it doesnt always work that way.  You also have to like yourself enough to be willing to invest the time and effort into making things better.   I also know that when I found out that I was insulin resistant it made me feel a whole lot better knowing that I'm not just some horrid loser who did everything wrong.   Nonetheless, I know its my responsibility to deal with the situation that I'm in.  I have to make myself better regardless of anything, but its really backwards and stupid to try and hate yourself into making things better.  It doesnt make sense, even though it seems like it should.

Ever since I started having a more healthy attitude about weight loss and health Ive managed to lose 33 lbs.   The weight loss itself is slow but I havent gained weight in years.   I like and care about myself now and that is producing much better results

Somewhat aside ...

Overweight people live longer.

I tend to agree.  I know that the more I disliked myself, the fatter I got.  Not that I ever got beyond mildly overweight.  But, on the other hand, I found it empowering to take personal responsibility for where I was - after all, if I caused myself to be the way I was, I could cause myself to be different.

i like the concept of free will. it is empowering.

and i don't think any one will be successful, in the long run, if one attempts to hate themselves into any goal in life. 

Original Post by minda_spk:

In any case, shame and guild inhibit weight loss, personal responsibility has no effect, and informing obese people that it might not be all their fault has a (*gasp*) positive effect.

Remember that next time you want to tell someone how they got into their own situation. At best, it's a practice of futility. At worst, one of demotivation and hindrance to weight loss.

^the point

Since my motivation/intentions are a topic of conversation, I could just tell you what they are : ). This is not ranting or venting, it's honestly a somewhat counter-intuitive finding on weight loss motivation. I see posts (and examples in rl) where people are honestly trying to seek motivation or are struggling with weight loss, and there is typically a reply or two stating that the person 'got themselves into the situation,' or some other idea to the effect of taking personal responsibility. I'm choosing to believe that the people who post/say such things do honestly believe it is motivating. It is intuitively sensical that someone taking 'personal responsibility' should feel empowered to change. However, quantitative research on the topic seems to strongly say this is not the case. In many cases the comments or ideas can cause shame or guilt, which hinders weight loss, and even those who accept the personal responsibility are still not any more likely to succeed at weight loss than those who don't. The purpose is making a statement informing that this can actually be de-motivating to weight LOSS (i.e. it encourages remaining obese). Is this the right place for it? Information about what types of motivation work and don't for weight loss does seem rather pertinent to a motivation forum on a calorie counting site.
     As for tone, I am a sarcastic person with a very dry sense of humor who is seldom 'ruffled'. I write like I talk. It comes across as amusing and calm in real life, of course its open to interpretation on a forum where it's simply being read.
    The citations to the articles can be found in my journal (titled citations). They are from peer-reviewed scholarly journals. I can email a copy if someone wants to read them. Sorry I can't link to them, just not the kind of reading available through google : )

theholla: Thank you for understanding the point. I didn't think it would be offensive either

trcyh: Appreciate the comments. I am, in fact, losing weight, and I don't encourage obesity. I agree that those are odd assumptions to make from this post. I posted a rant a couple weeks ago that offended some. Made apologies to those I had unintentionally offended. Some accepted, some did not. Unfortunately, I suspect it will continue to be brought up everytime I say anything that is nice to obese people, because it somehow reassures them of the reputation they envision from one post.

asphyxiac: well said.

madamq: I always appreciate your posts. Agree or not, they do tend to imply some thought behind them. And my family prefers the work 'ornery' : ) They're country people.

helionix: you don't like paragraphs? lol. I'm not contradicting free will. Weight loss takes committment, absolutely. I'm simply stating that the idea that one must take personal responsibility for their weight and be ashamed for being that weigh is shown to make weight loss more difficult.

Jessicabc: While this is intentionally a more research based post (i thought there would be less to attack that way... lol), I've met many, myself included, who had to let go of the guilt and blame to be able to stick to healthy changes.

lysistrata: I was in the same boat. The more I disliked myself, the more extreme fad diet I would try, then I would gain back plus some, then dislike myself even more. Then repeat. It's a horrible cycle. Accepting the ability to change is certainly a good thing for weight loss. As for accepting responsibility and blame for current weight, I'm sure it works for many people. The nature of research is tendencies, so it certainly wouldn't hold true for every single person.

musicalfishmich: I've started 16 threads thus far, I could recommend you read them all before speaking of what they 'all' do or say.
And thanks for bumping this thread so much : )

A really good post Minda! In all honesty Minda is right! She is telling the truth as experienced by most (if not all!) overweight people. As recorded in my journals, I am also dealing with the internal conflicts that have assisted me in staying overweight. Guilt, shame, and self-loathing are usually a part of being overweight and definitely needs to be dealt with as a part of any weight-loss program. ANYTHING that creates more negative feelings is definitely counter intuitive, the true argument here is: Since each person is different, what creates negative feelings? (I think she brought some facts to answer that question!)

Personal responsibility is an argument that needs to be examined very carefully before it is used. The use of that argument can be A) To truly encourage a person to take control of their situation or B) To deflect attention from my dubious practice and shine it on something else. A wife can sincerely want her husband to lose weight and adjure him to take control of his eating habits to lose weight.(Is this effective? it doesn't matter, she sincerely advocating personal responsibility for his weight in good faith.) One the other hand large food companies overtly (or subtly) and sometimes unethically assist in the consumption of more food and the consumption of fattening foods. This leads to obesity, but the food companies say it is personal responsibility why 50% of Americans are obese. Personally responsibility is a reflexive argument and needs to be carefully examined by anyone who purports it to see if they are without fault.

Finally, the premise of Minda's argument is right. Period! Now some may object to the tone of her argument and they are free to do so. However, we cannot shift the debate of her premise to that of her tone. While acknowledging her tone could have been more affable we cannot discredit or diminish her facts. Once stating her tone is unpleasant, we must return to examine her core argument. We are not here to debate her tone, we are here to consider the soundness of her premise. In that respect, her tone does not matter! Disrespectful, affable, cynical, or offensive her argument is based on truth, she has cited her sources, but I have lived her argument...there is no better source for this argument than my own life! Now, could she catch more flies using honey than vinegar? I don't know...she seems to catch a lot of flies using that bitter vinegar lol....

Solar......

point taken, minda.

i definitely have not read many of your other posts which do not have titles that i find personally offensive - they simply don't draw me.

also, i have not noticed (for myself) any threads degrading larger/obese people.  and it seemed as though in this thread as in the couple others of yours which have angered me, you are once again looking down your nose at those who have not been in your specific situation.  and i am not going to apologize about that.  i don't feel sorry for you or anyone else in the position you seem to be describing - however i do feel it takes an incredibly strong and empowered person to become motivated (by themselves or something outside of themselves) to lose any significant amount of weight - my sister a perfect example in my own real life.  and, if you are offerring some of that motivation to others out there who are indeed in your specfic shoes of life, kudos to you.

To everyone who asked what exactly is wrong with this post; Remember that next time you want to tell someone how they got into their own situation.

Who is she talking to? Who is she accusing of being accusing?

My other problem is that she is on this site to become one of the evil thin people yet can't stop saying how much she loves being overweight. So why is she here? To continually post on subjects she knows will provoke people.

I don't know why musicalfishmich's post was deleted, it made a very good point.

OH, and she's changed the title of the post!! Which makes it a lot less accusatory and offensive. Clever.

Just for anyone who didn't happen to see it, it used to be called "Fat people are lazy glutoons with no willpower"!

misscherryjane: you could ask why I changed it.

It was suggested to me, intelligently and politely on my journal, that the title was misleading and may cause people to get up in arms prior to reading it. I just thought is was satirical and attention grabbing, I hadn't considered it that way. So I changed it. Very clever of me.

I just explained who I am talking to above. I assume it is obvious that I'm talking to people who blame overweight people for their weight gain... No? didn't get that? The whole post is invalid and horrid because I didn't name any names or call anyone out?

This topic is about motivation for weight LOSS. WEIGHT loss. WEIGHT LOSS. How does that make me love being obese? For that matter, how do any of my posts make it sound like I love being obese? Or my profile? I don't think fat people should get treated poorly because of their weight. That is my agenda. Stop making it up. That's all it is. In this case I'm pointing out a common misconception that placing responsibility and blame on the overweight individual is motivating, when it is not.

Oh, when I'm not encouraging others to be obese, I ask fitness questions, post other sorts of motivation, caffeine withdrawal, summer food topic, etc., etc. Is that my clever distraction so people don't figure out I'm here just to try and convince people to be overweight?

Knowing something will provoke someone is not a good reason not to post it. I stand by the point as valid. Research shows that it is not helpful to blame the overweight for their condition, so people intending to be supportive shouldn't do it. The end.

musicalfish: the only criticism I intended here was at people who blame overweight people for their weight. And even that was meant as constructive criticism. There is no class, size, race, gender, etc, that it is directed at more than others. I'm not actually here just to raise hell, I do try and make a point every now and then : )