Shame, guilt, and personal responsibility - the effects on weight loss

It's all my fault, I did this to myself, I just need to quit eating so much, I just want a pity party, and on and on and on. The never ending comments meant to induce personal responisibility and guilt. It's a fun time. I'm obese because I ate too much and have poor willpower. Yes, and the problem with alcoholics is that they drink too much, yet as a society, we seem much more informed of the complexities of alcoholism than those of obesity.

Guilt and shame hinder weight loss efforts. Percieved responsibility for one's obese 'condition'is in no way sufficient to motivate weight loss, and in one study, the 'personal responsibility' group did no better at weight loss than the control (i.e. no treatment) group (Tobias & MacDonald, 1977). Yep, we've known it for that long, and the clinical community seems to have accepted it. The everyday person? Not even close.

And let's not forget the myth that genetics is bunk and purely an excuse used by the obese to stay obese. Does it really matter than it's been supported by every research effort studying it? I suppose not. And the excuse bit? Turns out those informed of the genetic link find it has a 'relieving' effect that promotes realistic weight loss goals and greater satisfaction with weight loss. Those who were big in self-blame and negative feelings about current weight are most likely to fail at weight loss efforts, and the 'genetics talk,' reduces these feelings (Conradt et al, 2009). So it's true and useful? Now I'm just talking crazy.

Oh, and personality traits aren't related to weight loss. Not even the lazy, unmotivated ones (Poston et al, 1999). Nor is locus of control (whether one thinks they control their live, or the environment does) (Hankins & Hopkins, 1978).

Did you know the differences between the obese and not go beyond weight? Obese people can recall more items after brief exposure, make fewer errors in complex reaction time tasks, and perform these tasks faster. Some studies also find that obese people solve critical thinking problems faster. However, obese people are slower to solve problems if they need to change strategies mid test, the tend to make the same process apply much longer than they should. This is thought to be based on the idea that the obese react more strongly to external cues, and that they have a deficit in response inhibition. Could also explain the eating for longer/more bit, since research shows that the obese don't eat more often, just more at each sitting (Singh, 1973). Of course, what's the cause and effect here? It's possible our fat content is just messing with our brain, but it's also possible that cognitive differences can effect one's eating habits and therefore weight.

In any case, shame and guilt inhibit weight loss, personal responsibility has no effect, and informing obese people that it might not be all their fault has a (*gasp*) positive effect.

Remember that next time you want to tell someone how they got into their own situation. At best, it's a practice of futility. At worst, one of demotivation and hindrance to weight loss.

And one more thing: Many of us 'obese' got here as the summation of weight gain from rebounding from extreme diets. You know, those stupid fad bits where immediately after stopping you gain more than you lost? So one might say we became obese from efforts to not be overweight. Ironic, eh?

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way stating that anyone is incapable of losing weight. Or anything else offensive. I am not rejecting the calories in/calories out equation. I am not attacking any particular group of people. I believe when people make comments attributing blame or responsibility to overweight individuals, that they honestly believe it is helpful. Research and experience says that it is not. This is a discussion on a particular de-motivator to weight loss. Citations are available in my journal, I would be happy to email full articles to interested individuals.

EDIT: Emphasis added to the point of the topic. Disclaimer expanded. And a corrected typo.

hey freedom to edit. you seem to edit some of your threads and quotes to your liking.

listen - just knock it off with the aggressive attitude toward those of us who have not struggled with obesity.  i felt attacked, personally, and felt i had a right to defend myself as strongly as possible.

you cannot refute the instigative nature of some (yes i know not all) of the threads you've started. be real.

You can't start a revolution without offending someone, hey? Looky, it's worked. Minda's got 4 pages :D

Original Post by helionix:

Original Post by minda_spk:

Taking personal responsibility for weight LOSS is extremely important, as I've stated. Taking personal responsibility for the weight previously gained is not. Or so my research says. As is the point of this post.

I repeat: Are you saying that overweight people shed pounds faster when they're in denial?

It seems sad. Of course comments such as "You lazy glutton" don't help, but "You got yourself overweight" is the truth if you believe in free will. If you're as comfortable in your own skin as you say you are, then the truth shouldn't bother you.

However, point taken. I have never mentioned weight to an overweight person, but I will watch my words in the future.

 Theres a difference between having someone say "You got yourself into this" and telling myself "I need to take better care of myself."

"You got yourself into this" makes me want to punch someone in the face.

"I need to take better care of myself" is positive and empowering.

Im glad you have never said anything negative to overweight people, but lots of people dont have that much tact. 

There's also a big difference between taking responsibility for yourself and having your flaws/mistakes pointed out by other people.

misscherryjane: I didn't answer all your questions because they are irrelevant. I've explained who it's directed to. I think second person is easier to write in than third. If you wish to tell everyone else here what I say in my journal one line at a time, out of context, perhaps you could just advise them to go read it.

Helionix: In the study described, there were 4 groups (participants randomly assigned into groups). The study was 10 weeks long.
1. One group was sent a weight loss manual every week with tips, exercise.
2. One group was asked to give up a monetary amount or item important to them. They signed a contract stating that if they did not reach there weight loss goal, they would forfeit it to a charity.
3. One group was informed that an important part of the process was accepting personal responsibility for their size and overcoming it, and were sent weight loss tips and suggestions of how to do so each week.
4. One group was told that due to a lack of resources, they could not be included in the study (the control group)

The first two groups lost significantly more weight than the latter two. In fact, the 'personal responsibility' group lost about the same amount as the control group.

Yes, I am saying 'you got yourself overweight' is unhelpful.
1. It's not always true
2. Accepting responsibility of weight gain does not encourage weight loss
3. It can unintentionally cause feelings of blame and guilt which hinder weight loss efforts.

musicalfish: I assume this isn't at me, since I have never sent you a PM. And again, your position is noted, perhaps we could discuss the content now.

Original Post by misscherryjane:

Original Post by musicalfishmich:

i feel like she needs/wants to be challenged by what the threads she creates. 

That is the impression she's created.

And yes musicalfishmich did leave out the important "for the next two years" bit but you can't deny the "I will post on these forums everyday as the ever-lovin fat advocate." bit can you?

Of COURSE no-one should feel bad or guilty about being overweight, that's not going to help anything.

Minda - Yes, funnily enough, I got that you were speaking to people who blame overweight people for their own weight gain, but I repeat my question of who this is exactly? Has someone told you that you're a fat lazy glutton with no willpower?

And as Helionix said, shame is no good, obviously, but personal responsibility? Without taking responsibility over their own lives and for their own actions no alcohol will stay dry, no absent parent will ever form a relationship with their child and no fat person will ever lose weight.

Genetics do play a part, I posted on another thread (one of yours? I can't remember) about how the mother basically programs her child's fat cells and metabolism during pregnancy, but that doesn't mean we can't take control. Some of us just need to work harder than others. The ones who take responsibilty for their actions will

 

I find that the amount of weight given to personal responsibility disingenuous. Personal responsibility is usually one of many factors that combine to lead to a situation be it overweight, drug use, eating disorders or otherwise. I am not saying that people are not responsible for their actions, I am saying a person cannot solely bear the total responsibility for their plight. Social, environmental, physical are just some of the multiplicity of factors that can COMBINE with personal responsibility to create a situation.

Personal responsibility is not the be all, end all of why people aren't losing weight. In fact personal responsibility, in my experience, is simply a cohesive that holds together many causes that affect weight and weight loss. In the end, no man is an island, we are connected to so many things in so many ways that it's quite unfair to say "you fed yourself all this food now deal with your weight problem."

Solar...

jessica: Alrighty. I will try my hardest in the future to avoid being punched in the face.

minda: Thank you for addressing my points and responding to them articulately. I appreciate the research you've done on the topic.

Yes, I am saying 'you got yourself overweight' is unhelpful.

Acknowledged. We all have sensitive issues. Personally I wouldn't mind if someone threw the blunt truth in my face, but everyone's different.

1. It's not always true

Why not? I thought we'd been over the whole fate vs. free will thing. Unless you have hypothyroidism or some EXTREME genetic disease, everyone's capable of handling his/her own body.

solar: Well said.

Original Post by helionix:

Original Post by minda_spk:

Taking personal responsibility for weight LOSS is extremely important, as I've stated. Taking personal responsibility for the weight previously gained is not. Or so my research says. As is the point of this post.

I repeat: Are you saying that overweight people shed pounds faster when they're in denial?

It seems sad. Of course comments such as "You lazy glutton" don't help, but "You got yourself overweight" is the truth if you believe in free will. If you're as comfortable in your own skin as you say you are, then the truth shouldn't bother you.

However, point taken. I have never mentioned weight to an overweight person, but I will watch my words in the future.

I believe in free will. All the decisions I have made in my life have led me to this point where I am now. There is no arguing that, however each individual decision I made has been influenced to some degree by people, events, and sometimes places. Has my freedom to choose led me to where I am? Yes. Has every decision I've made been devoid of influence? NO. Let's not make "free will" a concept that exist entirely outside realm of influence. It does not. If I can be influenced then I can share the blame for my situation with those influencing factors. This does not excuse my wrong doing, it only puts it in perspective with all other factors in the equation.

Moreover, "You got yourself overweight" fails to bring into question if there are any other factors that come into play besides the overweight person. If I was in an abusive relationship that caused weight gain then your statement does not even begin to address the real issue of the weight gain. Your approach would guarantee I will not lose weight because it grants immunity to any other possible causes, while placing the burden soley on me. I have contributed to my weight gain, I fully acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that others have also assisted in my weight gain. "You got yourself overweight" only blames me, what about everyone who assisted me?

"You got yourself overweight" is a half truth. Instead of blaming the overweight person we should be looking for the other half of this argument...

Solar....

Solar: I agree with you. And accepting that eating habits, learned through childhood or developed after, are a piece of the 'why I gained weight' puzzle. Saying it is the only, or even most important, factor, at the very least completely disregards the complexity of the situation. I also think that fighting against the external can in many ways be more effective for weight loss (which is interesting based on the research finding obese people more responsive to external cues). Fighting against genetics, or poorly learned habits, or even misinformation, is a much easier fight than trying to beat up oneself. Adopting the overweight stigma (and I use that term as related to research on the topic, that puts 'laziness' at the top of the list), only leads to negative self-perceptions. When positive outlook is a much greater motivator for weight loss.

Helionix: I have absolutely no problem with contradicting opinions, and the discussion of such was why I posted this. So I appreciate you sharing your thoughts in such a way.

While I have no intention of discussing my past or present medical conditions here (I do prefer for some things to be private and incapable of being mocked by others), I personally view it more as a continuum. At one extreme you have those with a combination of severe metabolic disorders, unlucky genetics, mobility problems, etc, that make it extremely difficult to lose weight, or even prevent gaining. At the the other extreme are those with a predisposition for being lean, a bounding metabolism, are taught healthy eating habits and an active lifestyle from childhood that they maintain throughout there life. Most people fall somewhere in-between, but the scale is still a wide one.

I did not intend to refute that most people are obese because of eating, I meant it was untrue more towards solar's point, in that it rejects the complexity of the situation, and is not a sufficient condition for most people's weight problem, though perhaps a necessary one.

For example, I, at one point, thought a 1200 calorie a day diet was the 'healthy diet' for women. Being large and quite active, I now know why it was a horrible idea. I lost weight but I couldn't maintain the diet (no surprise since my daily burn is close to 3000 calories). When I reverted back to normal eating, I gained the weight back plus some. Which is a common response to all 'extreme' diets. I chalk that weight surplus up to misinformation and ignoring my body. I could attribute it to my inability to 'stick to' a diet, to my willpower, etc. But it's simply not helpful. This might not be the best, strongest, example, but again, I've learned not to post any personal experience I don't want brought up later on the forums in a negative light (and that is most certainly NOT directed at you, btw.)

What of those who become obese as children/teens and have been fighting it ever since? Are they also at fault for their weight? Should they have innately known how unhealthy they were being and took over mom's cooking : )
I'm certainly not stating your point is invalid. I personally think that the responsibility should be more focused on current healthy efforts, and not related to prior weight gain, since it may have been supported by many factors. From depression, medical conditions, genetics, and, yes, poor eating habits, etc.

Original Post by minda_spk:

What of those who become obese as children/teens and have been fighting it ever since? Are they also at fault for their weight? Should they have innately known how unhealthy they were being and took over mom's cooking : )
I'm certainly not stating your point is invalid. I personally think that the responsibility should be more focused on current healthy efforts, and not related to prior weight gain, since it may have been supported by many factors. From depression, medical conditions, genetics, and, yes, poor eating habits, etc.

 This is a big one for me.  I was 200 lbs at 10 years old and 252 lbs at 16 years old.  Did I do this to myself?  Is it my fault I wasnt trying to prevent my own obesity in elementary school?  I didnt even know the word obesity existed when I was that young--yet I actually was obese already.

Im an adult now and I know that its my responsibility to lose weight.  But its not my fault.  I ate the food, but I was too young to know better.  I bet there's a million different variations of my experience throughout the obese community.  Thats why when someone says "You did this to yourself", it is not empowering or supportive.  Its just reaffirming that you ruined your own life and makes your feel like a loser.  And losers usually dont feel like they can make positive life changes.

Original Post by minda_spk:

misscherryjane: I didn't answer all your questions because they are irrelevant. I've explained who it's directed to. I think second person is easier to write in than third. If you wish to tell everyone else here what I say in my journal one line at a time, out of context, perhaps you could just advise them to go read it.

Helionix: In the study described, there were 4 groups (participants randomly assigned into groups). The study was 10 weeks long.
1. One group was sent a weight loss manual every week with tips, exercise.
2. One group was asked to give up a monetary amount or item important to them. They signed a contract stating that if they did not reach there weight loss goal, they would forfeit it to a charity.
3. One group was informed that an important part of the process was accepting personal responsibility for their size and overcoming it, and were sent weight loss tips and suggestions of how to do so each week.
4. One group was told that due to a lack of resources, they could not be included in the study (the control group)

The first two groups lost significantly more weight than the latter two. In fact, the 'personal responsibility' group lost about the same amount as the control group.

Yes, I am saying 'you got yourself overweight' is unhelpful.
1. It's not always true
2. Accepting responsibility of weight gain does not encourage weight loss
3. It can unintentionally cause feelings of blame and guilt which hinder weight loss efforts.

musicalfish: I assume this isn't at me, since I have never sent you a PM. And again, your position is noted, perhaps we could discuss the content now.

no minda, that wasn't directed at you - should've clarified myself better. lysistrata was the stalker PMing me.

and.. i'm tired of this. goodbye.

solar, minda, jessica: I get it. This is why I try not to judge. You never know what someone's been through. Yes, I honestly do think this whenever I see an overweight person, or try to. I can be terribly judgemental, but I'm getting there.

All organisms have a natural right to health. Babies aren't born overweight, and I'd really love to see an overweight deer. That said, life has a tendency to suck. We take the cards that we're dealt and run with them. As solar said, external influences definitely affect us. But even considering the childhood obesity issue, I still believe in personal choice, and so does the rest of our society. Free will is no less diminished in childhood. It's your body. You chose to eat it. In the end, your life has always been and will always be in your hands. Thus, I still feel justified in the statement "you got yourself overweight." Hopefully I can manage to say it with sympathy and understanding. It's not pretty, it may not be helpful, but it's the truth.

I personally think that the responsibility should be more focused on current healthy efforts, and not related to prior weight gain, since it may have been supported by many factors. From depression, medical conditions, genetics, and, yes, poor eating habits, etc.

Point taken. I like your posts. We often have a wildly different take on things, but I've enjoyed the banter.

In jessica's lovely words... take care :)

helionix: I enjoy your replies : )

While I still disagree with you on some points, they are, I believe, points of opinion and perception and don't require some push for consensus. I understand what you are saying, you seem to understand what I'm saying, so we've both learned the backing behind perspectives outside of our own.

Oh, and I hit an obese deer a couple years ago : ) Seriously, the thing may have been a cow in diguise. It almost totaled my car. I didn't take it's BMI or anything, it was just funny that you used that example, because ever since, obese deer are kind of a running joke in my family : )

Original Post by helionix:

solar, minda, jessica: I get it. This is why I try not to judge. You never know what someone's been through. Yes, I honestly do think this whenever I see an overweight person, or try to. I can be terribly judgemental, but I'm getting there.

All organisms have a natural right to health. Babies aren't born overweight, and I'd really love to see an overweight deer. That said, life has a tendency to suck. We take the cards that we're dealt and run with them. As solar said, external influences definitely affect us. But even considering the childhood obesity issue, I still believe in personal choice, and so does the rest of our society. Free will is no less diminished in childhood. It's your body. You chose to eat it. In the end, your life has always been and will always be in your hands. Thus, I still feel justified in the statement "you got yourself overweight." Hopefully I can manage to say it with sympathy and understanding. It's not pretty, it may not be helpful, but it's the truth.

I personally think that the responsibility should be more focused on current healthy efforts, and not related to prior weight gain, since it may have been supported by many factors. From depression, medical conditions, genetics, and, yes, poor eating habits, etc.

Point taken. I like your posts. We often have a wildly different take on things, but I've enjoyed the banter.

In jessica's lovely words... take care :)

How can you say with sympathy "You got yourself overweight"? It is an oxymoron to put those ideas together. (sympathy with blame, when have you last received both together?). Blaming someone for their situation, yet at the same time you are being sympathetic. What are you being sympathetic to? The idea that they are not doing enough to pull themselves out a hole? Your argument is a farce. You even acknowledge external influences only to ignore their effect. Then you have the gall to say that free will is granted to children. Beyond being disingenuous, you are self-righteous and condescending. At least you admit to being judgmental. I would actually give you credit for acknowledging that but your argument is such bullsh!t I can't help but think you are a person who can't accept their own faults (your argument clearly doesn't hold up to scrutiny yet you still advocate it!). You are clearly flawed in your way of thinking (I am sure your 10 year old will make all their nutritional decisions!), which is severely tougher to fix than obesity.

You haven't "got it." You still think you can be ignorant of a person's situation yet knowledgeable about the cause, hopefully you do get it and I do hope it's an expensive lesson that you learn...

That's my closing argument.

Solar Eclipse........

Solar: I was trying to think of an example of blame and sympathy together. The closest I got was someone getting fired from a job, and the person doing the firing may exhibit both, but I would always suspect one was a farce.

I do agree with you, and I believe many in society do also, especially in regards to child obesity. When someone sees an obese 5 year old, the response is 'why are the parents doing that?'

The idea that one can place blame without fault (which is what I think helionix is intending by 'understanding') is impossible (IMO). As I've stated, why would one say anything that induces shame and guilt in someone? Especially when that statement is, at the very best, a naively simplistic view of the truth.

However, I also think we've reached a point where most supporting arguements have been given, and I doubt any body's mind will continue to be changed.

I'm actually just happy that the last page doesn't contain any flaming or bashing : )

I think people are just looking for a self-righteous answer to a situation that does not affect them! We love to put ourselves on pedestals because it makes us feel good about ourselves. People are always looking for a way to further alienate or deflate the value of others, personal responsibility just happens to be another way. I am just surprised at the lack of thought people put into their comments and by extension their actions. Get off your self-righteousness people and come back down to earth! That is where the overweight, the drug users, and the emotional/nutritional disturbed are fighting their battles, and that is where you need to be if you want to help them!

Minda blame and sympathy just don't mix (oil and water comes to mind for some reason) but I hope people seriously question the premise of their ideas and beliefs, acknowledging where they fail and where they succeed. I must say I feel like people really just have bad intentions when they are dealing with the obesity of others. I think we need to be more empathetic to one another, it not only encourages others to be better, it makes us feel better.

Solar...

Solar: Unfortunately I'll refrain from commenting on my agreement with your first paragraph since I still get flamed for stating the same thing a couple weeks ago : )

When it comes to the negative view of obese people... yes, you are right. I read comments about how obese people can get away with more, or get pity, or are so common in our society that no one cares, and I'm amazed. Research wise, the stigma against fat people is well and consistently documented. Specifically that they are thought of as lazy and with poor willpower and whole other slew of negative personality traits.

To digress a bit: I read one study about the in-group effect of obese people. The in-group effect being that people in a stigmatized group tend to think more highly of those also in their group (well documented in regards to race, disability, etc.), but the effect does not exist in the obese. Many overweight individuals have accepted and internalized the stigma. The article was concluding that this is a major hurdle in reducing the stigma against overweight people, since they typically will not 'band together' and refuse to accept such ridiculous perceptions.

I also read a study showing that fat kids are looked at more negatively then disabled kids. Probably because it's 'their fault they're obese' :)

LOL unlike you Minda I do not play nice (that's why I usually just read the discussion and do not enter). So big deal flame me, I just hope they brought the fact with the heat 'cause I takes no prisoners.

I think it's well known among the overweight that there is an internal struggle to get over in addition to the weight that we have to lose. Being overweight is inherently negative as it lowers self-esteem, physical activity, and the desire to a part of anything. These tend to feed on themselves and create the perfect ground for an overweight kid to become an overweight adult with emotional problems. Common knowledge to anyone overweight, glad that the doctors took the time to tell us what we already know though. Now I can say for sure that being overweight sucks and it makes me feel bad about myself. Thanks doctors :)

Overweight kids worse off than disabled kids...sigh...it's not getting better for the overweight huh?! Hopefully it doesnt stay that way...growing up is hard enough being overweight and now you might have another group of kids making fun of you!

I agree with everything you say, solareclps.

I typed a response, but it would restart the flaming I think. Crap. In a nutshell, I was surprised at how a research based post criticizing a demotivator for weight loss illicited so many ignorant responses. It took me 4 pages to get the conversation about the topic : )

I'm beginning to think, based solely on these forums, that overweight people are also more likely to be thought of as 'looking for pity' : )

When I have kids I'm going to feed them chocolate cake at every meal, insist they eat it all, and then mock them for being fat and not taking personal responsibility. I mean, that's just free will, not bad parenting.

you know, when i was a kid, my mom used to give me a two liter of pepsi everyday.  i walked around the house with it and chugged it straight from the bottle.  we were poor, my parents worked all the time, and food was the one thing that even poor people cant deny giving their kids. maybe an adult would know better than to drink a whole two liter of soda a day, but i was a freakin' baby and my mom was providing it for me.  how would i know that it was bad?  how would i even know that it was abnormal for children to drink that much soda a day?  how would i know that i was doing something completely unhealthy, abnormal, and wrong.   i didnt.     i wouldnt say i have bad parents or anything, but things were messed up for all of us.  i was a child though and the idea that i had the "free will" to say make good or bad choices is just the biggest load of crap ive ever heard.

i have had some serious mental trauma resulting from my childhood obesity.  i have spent many many years truly believing that i was some inferior breed of human being for being so different in such an unacceptable way.  ive never lived a life that didnt involve me being obese.  i wasnt physically born this way, but mentally i was.  i can remember feeling too fat in pre-k.  i hated myself for such a long time and really thought that something was innately wrong with me.   i ended up being so self destructive in every way possible. 

it wasnt until i became an adult, less than two years ago, that i started to consider the concept that maybe it wasnt my fault.  maybe i couldnt do anything to prevent what happend.  maybe im not just a natural born loser.   once i started taking the blame off of myself, i started becoming a productive person.  i started taking pride in myself because i finally realized that i wasnt a loser.  i finally started treating myself like a good person. 

the idea that free will rules all is such a cop out--especially if you're talking about childhood obesity.