Skinny but 'fat'

This post is off the back of another one I posted earlier about wanting to lift weights to put on 'weight' but not fat. I'm naturally slim and petite, and with clothes on I look skinny and people say I don't need to watch what I eat (a real gripe of mine!)

However, I do retain a lot of fat round my stomach. I never used to, and it matched the rest of my body. But now my legs, arms, back and finally my ass are all in shape but I still have a 'ponch' over my stomach and small love handles. They're not vastly out shape with the rest of my body but it is frustrating. I don't want to cut calories to 'lose weight' per se as I'm already 99lbs at 5'4. I know if I lift weights whilst doing aerobic  I should technically put on weight or at least maintain, as muscle is heavier than fat - but that doesn't happen. Last time I cut calories from 1400 to 1200 in order to lose the fat, I just lost weight (and some of the fat...).

I know this isn't healthy to do at my weight and heigh, as technically I'm 'underweight'. Someone mentioned in a previous post that often underweight or skinny people retain weight in their stomach as a defence mechanism to being underweight.

I know you can't spot-reduce fat, and I can't do anything to focus on losing the fat around my stomach.

But are there any healthy tips on how I could cut the fat down whilst maintaining, or even gaining, weight?

I do weight lifting 3 times a week, and running 2 - 3 times a week. I eat 1400 on non-workout days and 1600 on workout days.

I see pictures of people who are 'heavier' on the scales than me but have very cut stomachs with nothing to pinch and it is frustrating - that's what I'd like to acheive! Not 'skinniness' but 'cut'!

I think the weight lifting that you're doing is really going to help. Adding muscle will speed up your metabolism. But I also really think you need to eat more! Its damn near impossible to add muscle if you're eating at a calorie defecit. Try eating at maintenance for a while. And get plenty of protein! That is so super important for gaining muscle mass.

Also, I would suggest ignoring your scale for a while and measuring progress with a tape measure. When I started gaining muscle I was freaked out that I had gained five pounds....until I noticed that all my clothes were too big.

Thanks danaofdoom! I think I just need to stick with what I'm doing.

I was at a calorie deficit before I went on holiday but now I'm back after 10 days of eating and no exercise except casual swimming, I need to get back and shape and shift a bit of fat. I think the 10 days off will have 'reset' things and gotten me off my plateau.

According to CC I need 1400 calories to mantain, so that's what I eat on non-workout days, and I eat 1600 on workout days. I do also eat a lot of protein, and on purpose. Just carbs don't fill me up. For breakfast I usually have an egg and toast, but have now upped that to an egg, slice of bacon and toast.  I then always have some form of protein in my lunch and never go vege. Such as tuna, chicken, prawn cocktail etc. And dinner always has protein in it too. I'd say I'm getting the right balance of protein / carbs / fat although I may start introducing a protein shake in the morning.

I've also been measuring and only do the scales out of fear that I'll lose more weight. I went down to  96lbs at one point without realising. Hadn't weighed myself for a month, had been working out and counting calories but again not to lose, but to cut fat and build muscle. I think I naturally have a very sleight frame that loses muscle easily. So now I make sure I'm maintaining.

So do you think if I up my protein intake and make sure I'm never in deficit it might be the trick? Before I thought less calories = less fat but now I've realised that usually it's muscle that will disappear rather than this pesky fat.

 

edited: I did have '4500' to maintain, complete typo I meant to put '1400' calories to maintain!

1400 just seems so low...

I just did it again and realised that 1420 was at the lowest activity level - sedentary. I put this as I do a 9 - 5 desk job although I don't drive and do walk to and from work. I also put this so I could then add in my exercise on top of this, which usually amounts to 150 - 200 a day.

If I put 'lightly active' it's 1600. I know that if I eat 1400 I don't lose or gain weight so it does seem to be my 'balance' amount of calories.

I'm also naturally unable to eat large amounts in one sitting without getting very full, tired, bloated and groggy after. I usually crave small amounts often, naturally, and in doing this get hungry quickly too. So I eat 6 small meals a day of 300 calories, with dinner being about 600.

If I ate more than 1400 I would feel it was surplus as the 1400 I eat gets me through the day without being hungry, and dinner which is larger, like chilli con carne with rice, cheese, and sour cream, leaves me feeling nicely full. I never stay hungry or purposely 'starve' myself.

Oh and normally if I ever go over this 1400, say going to 2000, it's from junk food like chocolate bars or a large cake that has a lot more calories despite not filling me up much.

If I was to eat more calories of main-meal foods like soup, chicken, pasta etc. I get really far too full, with a 'food-baby' to show for it, and get lethargic.

Original Post by danaofdoom:

1400 just seems so low...

 It is.

Your cals are way off. You need to increase them.

Did you know that underweight people often have a 'pooch'...I liken it to the malnourished kids you see on those informercials..so gaunt but with big, bloated bellies. There is no way a 5'4" person should weigh 99 lbs - no matter how small the frame. 

I don't know if you have ever had an ED..and I'm not saying you do, either..so please don't take this post wrong. All I know is that you are serverly underweight..should be eating in a SURPLUS with good nutrition.

Thanks fitnessgirll, and no I don't take offence.

I've never had an ED, neither starved myself or purged once. But I admit, I don't like fat on me, and try my hardest to keep fat off, normally by counting calories and exercising. If I put on fat I'm unhappy and not confident. I was always naturally skinny growing up and could eat whatever I wanted and nothing happened, but then adulthood hit and I still ate crap (donuts for breakfast etc.) and then I put on 'fat' but stayed quite scrawny. I guess the 'pooch'.

I don't have the 'bloated' pooch that I think you're referring to. It is literally fat on my stomch that I can pinch. About a good inch and a half under my belly button. I have tried eating more before, and all that happened was I put on more fat.

So how could I eat more, and put on weight to get to a healthy weight, without putting on fat around my stomach?

By way of illustrating that I'm not skin and bone with a bloated stomach, I am a D cup although have a 28" back. Again, a very small frame... I also have very narrow feet and tiny hands, so do believe I have a tiny bone structure. My grandmother is only 4'10 and my mum is my height and also very petite.

But I'm not arguing, I actually really appreciate the feedback. Being called 'anorexic' in school and accused of an ED has been an on-going frustration of mine. This morning I had a bagel, fried egg and slice of bacon for breakfast, bowl of cereal and banana for a snack and a large prawn cocktail salad for lunch, and have just finished a 200 cal chocolate bar as a mid-afternoon snack, with spag bol for dinner coming up. That still all totals to 1600 (I'm going to a karate class later) - so how is that not enough food, if written down it looks like a lot and fills me up? And how can I put on healthy weight?

Original Post by runjenrun:

Thanks fitnessgirll, and no I don't take offence.

I've never had an ED, neither starved myself or purged once. But I admit, I don't like fat on me, and try my hardest to keep fat off, normally by counting calories and exercising. If I put on fat I'm unhappy and not confident. I was always naturally skinny growing up and could eat whatever I wanted and nothing happened, but then adulthood hit and I still ate crap (donuts for breakfast etc.) and then I put on 'fat' but stayed quite scrawny. I guess the 'pooch'.

I don't have the 'bloated' pooch that I think you're referring to. It is literally fat on my stomch that I can pinch. About a good inch and a half under my belly button. I have tried eating more before, and all that happened was I put on more fat.

So how could I eat more, and put on weight to get to a healthy weight, without putting on fat around my stomach?

By way of illustrating that I'm not skin and bone with a bloated stomach, I am a D cup although have a 28" back. Again, a very small frame... I also have very narrow feet and tiny hands, so do believe I have a tiny bone structure. My grandmother is only 4'10 and my mum is my height and also very petite.

But I'm not arguing, I actually really appreciate the feedback. Being called 'anorexic' in school and accused of an ED has been an on-going frustration of mine. This morning I had a bagel, fried egg and slice of bacon for breakfast, bowl of cereal and banana for a snack and a large prawn cocktail salad for lunch, and have just finished a 200 cal chocolate bar as a mid-afternoon snack, with spag bol for dinner coming up. That still all totals to 1600 (I'm going to a karate class later) - so how is that not enough food, if written down it looks like a lot and fills me up? And how can I put on healthy weight?

 OK, your diet is too carb centric. And, need I say...a chocolate bar for snack? Although it makes sense, bc you are probably craving sugar...You need to stop concentrating on the number of calories so much.

The truth is that your body doesn't pay attention to how many daily calories are eaten, but rather your body pays attention to how much of EACH TYPE of calorie that you consume.

For example, if you eat too many sugar based calories [sugar is common in fat free foods, btw] then your body won't be able to use all of those sugar calories, and the excess calories will be stored as fat tissue.

This can happen even if you didn't eat very many daily calories, because if you eat too many "wrong" calories then you'll get fat.  This is why many obese people remain overweight their whole lives even though they eat less than some of their skinny friends and family members. Now, you are not fat..I haven't seen a picture but anyone weighing 99 lbs at 5'4" is NOT fat. But, your diet is not nutritionally sound. Is it the worst I've seen..no..but it needs a lot of help. Stop paying attention to numbers and start paying more attention to what you are actually putting in your mouth. And, UP your calories [I'm sticking with this]. By getting PROPER nutrition, along with exercise...those extra cals will NOT result in fat loss but will add to muscle repair. Muscle will burn more cals than fat..not to mention..looks way better when not covered up with fat! ;)

Hi,

What type of weight lifting are you doing?  Are you doing any core work ie planks, back rows, bicycle crunches?  A lot of people tend to focus on regular crunches which only work part of your core.  Your diet seems pretty good although I would try cutting down on your grain-based carbs in favor of more fibrous veggies, especially at night.  You might want to try checking out the Resistance Training category on About.com.  They focus a little more on the body building aspects of strength training and have a lot of suggestions on nutrition.  Obviously, if you put more muscle on, your scale weight might go up (which wouldn't be a bad thing) but your body fat might go down.  The amount of cardio that you're doing might actually be breaking down your muscle tissue so pre-workout and post-workout nutrition tweaking might also be beneficial.

It's better to reorient your goals. If you goal is to be skinny, there's always another pound to lose, better to concentrate on fitness. Make goals like-  I want to lift  5-10 more pounds within 4 weeks, or add another set of squats by next week. I'm 5'4 and I'm 120lbs, and if I weighed 99lbs I would probably just look like a bobble head. I think you should gain weight, exercise with a concentration on lifting weights. I find bodyrock.tv to be really helpful. Best of luck.

Original Post by fitnessgirll:

 OK, your diet is too carb centric. And, need I say...a chocolate bar for snack? Although it makes sense, bc you are probably craving sugar...You need to stop concentrating on the number of calories so much.

The truth is that your body doesn't pay attention to how many daily calories are eaten, but rather your body pays attention to how much of EACH TYPE of calorie that you consume.

For example, if you eat too many sugar based calories [sugar is common in fat free foods, btw] then your body won't be able to use all of those sugar calories, and the excess calories will be stored as fat tissue.

This can happen even if you didn't eat very many daily calories, because if you eat too many "wrong" calories then you'll get fat.  This is why many obese people remain overweight their whole lives even though they eat less than some of their skinny friends and family members. Now, you are not fat..I haven't seen a picture but anyone weighing 99 lbs at 5'4" is NOT fat. But, your diet is not nutritionally sound. Is it the worst I've seen..no..but it needs a lot of help. Stop paying attention to numbers and start paying more attention to what you are actually putting in your mouth. And, UP your calories [I'm sticking with this]. By getting PROPER nutrition, along with exercise...those extra cals will NOT result in fat loss but will add to muscle repair. Muscle will burn more cals than fat..not to mention..looks way better when not covered up with fat! ;)

 I know...a chocolate snack for a bar isn't the best. To be honest, I've come a long way from how I used to eat. Often just cereal or toast for breakfast, a sandwich for lunch (not much protein) and then something pasta-heavy for dinner, so a lot of carbs and not much protein at all! Now I make sure there is protein in my breakfast, lunch and dinner although I guess I need to make even more effort now.

I'm looking into different protein shakes I can take, and Herbalife is one that has been recommended to me. It's Soy Protein, and I know Whey is supposed to be better - could you say whether I would be ok with soy protein shake?

That's also really interesting about the types of calories I should be consuming, and that sugary calories aren't used and so stored as fat. So if I cut the amount of sugar I'm eating and replace it with protein...

I've never said I was 'fat' or called myself 'fat'. Instead, that I'm skinny but with excess fat on me where I don't want it. I know the title of the post can be misleading... But yes, all that you've said would make sense as to why I'm petite and 'skinny' but also with fat on me. I guess I was resting on my laurels of being naturally petite and therefore not increasing dress size but still being able to eat cakes and chocolate. I've got a terrible sweet tooth...

I don't mean to bombard with questions fitnessgirll, and I know this is straying into nutrtion territory whilst this is the fitness forum. But in what way could I incorporate high-protein snacks into my diet? Obviously cutting chocolate bars as a snack is a good start! ;) But I'm confused as I need to still get fibre etc. which is why I see sultana bran cereal as a good pre-gym snack, with a high protein lunch afterwars (chicken and bean wrap). To be honest, I don't stick well to diets that are hugely restrictive and 'dull' or feel like a chore. I like to be able to eat foods I genuinely enjoy eating, but are still good for me.

As for exercise, is doing running / cardio 2 - 3 times a week and weights 2 - 3 times a week (with one day on, one day off) an ok routine? Or should I focus more on weights and less on cardio, or more on cardio?

Original Post by acretin:

Hi,

What type of weight lifting are you doing?  Are you doing any core work ie planks, back rows, bicycle crunches?  A lot of people tend to focus on regular crunches which only work part of your core.  Your diet seems pretty good although I would try cutting down on your grain-based carbs in favor of more fibrous veggies, especially at night.  You might want to try checking out the Resistance Training category on About.com.  They focus a little more on the body building aspects of strength training and have a lot of suggestions on nutrition.  Obviously, if you put more muscle on, your scale weight might go up (which wouldn't be a bad thing) but your body fat might go down.  The amount of cardio that you're doing might actually be breaking down your muscle tissue so pre-workout and post-workout nutrition tweaking might also be beneficial.

 I go to  a class called muscle tone which does both, but always has the plank and often side plank included, as well as dead lifts. The instructors always remind us that a lot of the exercises also work the core, so don't do many crunches at the end as they're already being worked.

That's interesting about cardio breaking down the muscle, as it seems to be general consensus that cardio burns fat. So what pre and post nutrition should I be aiming for? I currently aim for carbs before a workout (today, a bowl of sultana bran and an apple) and then protein-rich lunch for after (today, a chicken and 3 bean wrap), and then a mixed dinner (such as rice with chicken).

Original Post by inkblue:

It's better to reorient your goals. If you goal is to be skinny, there's always another pound to lose, better to concentrate on fitness. Make goals like-  I want to lift  5-10 more pounds within 4 weeks, or add another set of squats by next week. I'm 5'4 and I'm 120lbs, and if I weighed 99lbs I would probably just look like a bobble head. I think you should gain weight, exercise with a concentration on lifting weights. I find bodyrock.tv to be really helpful. Best of luck.

 I don't think my goal is to be 'skinny', as I don't like that term anyway - it has the same negative tone as being 'fat'. Instead, I'd like to have low fat, but shape and muscle tone.

Also, even though I know my stats are low, I would definitely not say I'm a bobbel head. I think everyone is built differently, and I've never been over 105lbs in my life, but I have a 0.7 hip to waist ratio, do have larger breasts (and I believe most 'underweight' people with too little body fat often lose fat from their breasts), have 34" hips...that's why I want to bulk up muscle in my arms, legs, ass, back, stomach...well everywhere really, to give me definition but also cut fat. I don't think I'll ever have a naturally 'athletic' build as if I stop exercising for even a week my body loses muscle quickly, and I'm quite waif life with very skinny wrists and tiny hands and feet. I think recognising what your natural body shape and size is then working to improve on that is the best we can do :)

Thanks for the tips though. I think my mistake has been concentrating on calories and cardio to burn fat, with muscle tone to aid toward muscle growth, as opposed to nutrition. My goals will probably be aimed on food and exercise equally, as my demons are chocolate and cake with a lack of love for vegetables... I'll checkout bodyrock.tv too, thanks!

The general recommendation for pre workout nutrition is to have a small amount of high quality carbs to fuel your workout....then to have a meal within 30 minutes of your workout that has a 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein. That ratio will help replace the muscle glycogen that gets burned during cardio.

I'd like to clarify my comment about cardio burning muscle tissue, cardio burns a lot of calories...the calories have to come from somewhere.  Usually, they will come from carbs first and then muscle tissue.  If you're calorie deficit is too high, then your body will start using muscle tissue for energy because it's used up everything else.  If you use this calculator http://www.phord.com/cc/, it will show you the maximum calorie deficit that you can have without catabolizing your muscle tissue.  It's very difficult to build muscle while you're in a calorie deficit, not impossible, but difficult.  I used a cycling approach, where I had a small calorie deficit for two weeks with strength training 4x a week with heavier weights and cardio 4x a week.  I followed that by two weeks of strength training 3x a week with lighter weights and 5-6x cardio sessions.  This approach helped me build muscle for two weeks and then "cut" the fat for two weeks.

acretin, this is really interesting and useful - thanks. I just used that website and here are my results:

 

BMR 1186 kcal RMR 1423 kcal Avg. Daily Burn 1838 kcal Activity deficit 652 kcal Exercise deficit 415 kcal Safety deficit (1%/wk) 495 kcal Max deficit to BURN FAT 485 kcal Recommended deficit 485 kcal Recommended intake target 2588 kcal Recommended daily protein 36 g (minimum) Daily protein ratio 5.6 % (minimum) Expected weight loss 1 lb per week Age (years) 24 Weight 99 lb Height 64 inches Ideal weight (BMI=22) 127.6 lb Ideal range (BMI=18.5-25) 107.8 lb - 145.2 lb Amount to gain 8.8 lb Lean mass 83.6 lb Fat mass 15.4 lb BMI 17 (Underweight 16.5-18.5)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am slightly confused. BMR is the amount of calories I burn when not doing anything, just my body functions. So what is RMR? Resting Metabolic Rate? If, and only if, I wanted to maintain would I match my BMR or RMR?

Also, this calculator has estimated I put on 1.5lbs a week. I'm not comfortable with putting on that much weight so quickly, and I don't think I could physically eat 2588 calories a day!!!

But, as you were saying, according to the calculator the largest deficit I can have is 485 to safely burn fat. So, just to make sure I'm understanding, if my RMR is 1400calories, and I need to go to down 1200 to burn fat, then if I consumed 1400 and burnt 200 calories in the gym this is ok? This is what I have been doing to burn fat and does work but doesn't build muscle.

Sorry, I feel like I'm going round in circles and not fully understanding. How should someone my weight and with my RMR burn fat? With a calorie deficit? Or by eating more but also exercising more and not paying attention to calorie deficit?

Original Post by acretin:

The general recommendation for pre workout nutrition is to have a small amount of high quality carbs to fuel your workout....then to have a meal within 30 minutes of your workout that has a 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein. That ratio will help replace the muscle glycogen that gets burned during cardio.

I'd like to clarify my comment about cardio burning muscle tissue, cardio burns a lot of calories...the calories have to come from somewhere.  Usually, they will come from carbs first and then muscle tissue.  If you're calorie deficit is too high, then your body will start using muscle tissue for energy because it's used up everything else.  If you use this calculator http://www.phord.com/cc/, it will show you the maximum calorie deficit that you can have without catabolizing your muscle tissue.  It's very difficult to build muscle while you're in a calorie deficit, not impossible, but difficult.  I used a cycling approach, where I had a small calorie deficit for two weeks with strength training 4x a week with heavier weights and cardio 4x a week.  I followed that by two weeks of strength training 3x a week with lighter weights and 5-6x cardio sessions.  This approach helped me build muscle for two weeks and then "cut" the fat for two weeks.

 Acretin, I also meant to say. Solely off the back of our post regarding pre-workout food I had a much larger serving of bran flakes than normal (60g) and also a full apple an hour before my workout (running on the treadmill) and I felt so good during my workout. I've been on holiday for 10 days so was expecting to have lower performance than normal, but my energy just kept going..definitely made a difference! Also after my workout, within 20 minutes of it, I had a chicken and 3 bean wrap which had equal amounts of protein and carbs and has left me feeling very full.

you my friend suffer from normal weight obesity, or something called as "skinny fat"  what does it mean? well yes your body weight might be reallly low, however dieting has prolly burned off A LOT OF MUSCLE, so your body fat percentage, altho prolly low, is still higher than your lean mass (muscle)

u want a flat stomach? then easy, you gotta fill out your body, that means time to "bulk up" haha dont worry u wont get huge, just stop dieting now, keep eating clean but now raise your calories to maintenance and reduce your cardio to 3-4 times a weeks, and most importantly, START PUMPING IRON, with intensity. Also important thing is to raise the protein in your diet, you are skinny fat so that means throughout your diet your protein requirements were probably too low, now in order to gain muscle it is reccommended to eat 1 gram of protein for every pound of body weight, so if you weight 99 pounds, then eat 99+ grams of proteina  day.

also note that as with weight loss, healthy weight gain takes time, building muscle is actually much harder than losing fat but its A LOT MORE FUN. to build muscle without adding fat do cardio as I said, 3-4 times sa week, and never go on a deficit, eat maintenance and some days its ok to eat a bit more, specially if you are lifting because the body will need the extra calories in order to build additional lean tissue.

you wont lose the remainder of the belly fat by dieting, and if you do, by the time u do lose it you will be wayyyyy underweight and be nothing but skin and bones, so stop cutting calories THIS MOMENT, your deficit is done, go up to maintenance and start putting on lean mass. as I said before, puttinn on healthy weight takes time, and it takes as much dedication as it took to lose it, and of course hard work, but hey if you have the dicipline to lose weight (fat and unfortunately the muscle you loss) then you can imply that same dicipline and principles to build muscle

remember a muscle building diet is identical to a diet for losing body fat, you eat the same foods you ate the lose weight, exept now you just eat more of them, and make sure you eat lots of protein

complete source of protein (contain all essential amino acids) can be obtained from animal proteins (lean red meat, poultry, seafood, etc...) and imcomplete source of protein (must be combined with other imcomplete source of protein to complete the amino acids chain) can be obtained from foods like whole grains, soy, tofu, nuts (walnuts, almonds, hazzlenuts, etc...) peanuts etc..

also dont neglect fat, its something I see on this site, "low fat this, fat is bad" etc.. well that is a bunch of bull, fat gets a bad rep on this site, of course too much fat is bad, but you neeed to get your essential fatty acids (good fats) in order to build muscle and burn fat, so make sure u take in things like olive oil, flaxeed oil, fatty fish like salmon, nut butter (all natural PB, or Almond butter, etc)

remember your goal is too BURN THE FAT AND FEED THE MUSCLE

trust me, raise your muscle mass and you will lose your stomach fat, why is this? because as you gain muscle mass, your body fat level will remain the same, but the overall percentage compared to the increasing body mass percentage will make the fat percentage smaller and smaller. look for body composition, and stop trusting the scale. from now on measure your body fat, put that scale in the closet, the only accurate way to know you are progressing is by looking in the mirror every week and by taking your body fat percentages every week as well. if you find that on the scale you are gaining weight, but your body fat percentage remains the same or is going down, then you are on the right track  :)

if you need any more advice and info feel free to message me :)

 

 

also be sure to become familiar with the terms "anabolism" and "catabolism" , google them up, and know that "catabolism" is your WORST ENEMY when it comes to burning fat and building muscle.

and for further note, you wouldnt have lost so much muscle if your cutting diet if you had kept your protein intake high and had been lifting weights, just something i though you should know for whenever the next time it is that you feel you have to drop body fat again :p

 

also most importantly, aside from breakfast, your post workout meal is the most important meal of the day. Opposed to what some people say, it ok to have some simple carbs (or detroxe) right after your workout, because this is the time when muscle glycogen is at its lowest , and taking some simple carbs (try to keep it natural to things like honey, high GI fruits, etc...) will replentish your glycogen supplies, and most importantly, raise your insulin. an insulin boost after working out IS A MOST, because insulin fights off the catabolic hormone cortisol, and insulin is also a key agent in the catabolic muscle building process.

so whats best to take after a workout? well whey protein because its quick absorbing protein, and some simple carbs, so you can make a good tasty nutritious shake. also make sure your post workout meals are low in fat and fiber, and preferably have no fat at all, fat slows down the abosorption of whey and fiber that of simple carbs, and this in turn cancels out the whole purpose of taking in whey or simple carbs after a workout. it is important that your body takes nutrients within the 30 minutes after completing your workout for the optimal use of nutrients.

Thanks lt_jesus! Your posts are really interesting and eye-opening. I do agree with what you've said, my calorie cutting has probably led to muscle loss so I will start maintaining and up-ing my weight lifting. I'll also need to focus on protein intake as I do think I eat a lot of protein, but probably not enough. I think a protein shake is probably the way forward...

Thanks again for your help and posts, I really appreciate it. I may well take you up on the offer and send you a message a bit later! :)

lt_jesus, and anyone else who has advice to give, I have a question. I'm looking to start taking recovery shakes post-workout to prevent catabolism and ensure my muscle is healing and growing. Also, taking on board what you said that carbs aren't bad in this, I've been given as a trial by a friend a certain shake, and wondered what your opinion was.

It's herbalife formula 1 Healthy Meal Nutrtional Shake Mix. It's not a pure protein shake, as it does contain more carbs than protein, but is low fat. It also has lots of minerals and vitamins.

One serving in 250ml of semi-skimmed milk:

217 kcal
18g Protein
22g Carbs (of which sugars 21.1g. This worries me slightly!)
6.5g Fat
2.5g Fibre

I was planning on taking this post-weights workouts as this is when my energy is low and my muscles are very weak and shakey. But also pre-cardio workout, like running, as I often get energy dips mid run and was hoping this would sustain.

I do get the feeling that I should be taking more of a 'protein' shake rather than a 'nutrtional' shake post weights for real muscle gain, but wondered what your thoughts were on this 'nutrtional' shake?