Soy, Estrogen, and Men??

I recently heard that a diet rich in soy may be unhealthy for men as it increases estrogen production.  Anyone know specifics about this? What are the risks/benefits for men?  Thanks.

With respect to soy, I just can't fathom why you'd want to make a long-term experiment of yourself. You may feel alright with a high consumption of soy today, but what if your genetics set you up for a higher risk of Alzheimer's, thyroid cancer, ovarian cancer, or some other disease of toxicity?

Venix, I think part of the reason we're disagreeing here is that we are coming from different perspectives on what "eating healthy" is.  I do not think that eating tofu is "making an experiment of myself."  I like tofu, and edamame, and all of that stuff.  It's delicious, fantastic to cook with, and cheap as well.  It also, where I am, has the benefit of being a locally produced food.

When I saw studies in the news about possible dangers of tofu, sure, I followed up on it, researched, etc.  And my conclusion was that a lot of people who know more about biology than me are really not sure.  My empirical evidence, i.e. living in Asia, tells me that it's not going to hurt me, and my original aim in replying to this thread was just to share, "hey, lost of Asians eat lots of tofu and it doesn't seem to hurt them, so I don't think we can declare it all bad yet."

I don't disagree with you that we can develop diseases based on our eating habits, and I don't think medical science contradicts that either (e.g. sugar and diabetes, saturated fat and heart disease).  But for me, there's just not enough evidence against soy for me to stop eating a food that I enjoy.

As far as "diseases of aging" in Koreans, I think it's way too soon to draw any conclusions, because there are just so many things that might be a factor.  50% of Korean men smoke, and that's significantly lower than 20 years ago.  What we would call binge drinking is culturally expected here, and I know a lot of people here who are totally normal by Korean standards, but who I would describe as functioning alcoholics.  Then you have the sodium consumption, which is so high that the recommended limit is 3500 mg, because anything else would be unrealistic.  And the rampant pollution from rapid industrialization.  And so on.  I think it just makes the whole thing a big question mark right now, and that's why I objected to your linking together of soy, aluminum, and Alzheimer's: it made it sound like it had been studied and some connection found, when really there was not.

I don't want to knock your diet; it sounds like it works for you and that's great.  But it's not for me.  And as you said, it's not mainstream, which is fine, but I think it would be nice if, when you offer some information based on it, you are clear about where you're coming from.  You might even spark some interest and prompt someone to make a life change.

P.S. Still interested in your thoughts on potatoes, rice, and oatmeal. ;)

Hello,

As a frothbeast male, I would really like to know if we have come to a definite answer, as my wife(the vegetarian) and her mother are amused that I may be losing some portion of my manliness by dining with her.....

I would be happiest if I could eat the same foods as my wife without growing boobs, and without going backwards through puberty.......

LOL Froth!

No conclusions that I can see!

But... I would hesitate to give a baby soy formula going forward.  Unless he/she was really allergic to cow's milk or s/t.  Just b/c, I dunno, better safe than sorry.

P.S. Still interested in your thoughts on potatoes, rice, and oatmeal. ;)

Suboptimal foods, but far more time-tested for safety than the consumption of unfermented soy (which I say only because we're in a discussion about soy).

My belief, which is based about 90% on science (especially evolutionary biology) and about 10% on my faith in nature and intuition, is that humans do best on a diet that resembles what we were eating roughly 100,000 to a million years ago.  Foods newer than that need to be considered on an individual basis, and I judge all cooked foods guilty until proven innocent.  Cooked foods are not the same as the raw foods they came from; this is an area of research that's only recently, like in the past 10 years, been studied with any seriousness.

Cooking method is important.  All high-starch foods produce carcinogenic acrylamides when subjected to high heat, frying and grilling being the worst.  (McDonald's french fries contain about 300 times the amount of acrylamides allowed by the EPA to be in a glass of water.)  Steaming and low-temperature cooking do the least damage.

Potatoes can't be consumed raw in large quantities (I know raw foodists who eat them but I think they're weird) because of a subtle toxin that accumulates in organs over time.   Steamed they're okay, but hardly anybody really needs them in their diet; if you're eating them regularly, then you're eating them at the expense of something you could be eating with more vitamin and mineral content.  An 80% raw foodist I know from my karate class includes them just for the calories; we jokingly call them "calorie supplements".

Brown rice can be sprouted and eaten raw, which I don't find particularly yummy, but some people like it.  When steamed it's pretty low in "the bad stuff", which is why I recommend it to people when transitioning to raw.

Oats can definitely be eaten raw when soaked, and they actually taste pretty good that way.  I've prepared raw oatmeal from soaked oat groats for cooked foodists who couldn't tell the difference.  However I'm wary of the gluten in oats; I'm personally gluten-sensitive and very cautious in its recommendation.  Cooked or raw, gluten is one of the most subtly addicting substances in the world.  Search on "exorphins" for info.

In general, I don't think beans and grains are proper foods for humans, and they're too new in our diets on the evolutionary scale for our bodies to have totally adapted to their digestion.  (Notice I'm saying *totally* adapted -- some ethnic backgrounds have adapted differently than others.)  I've seen dozens of people experience much more radiant health when they cut back or eliminate their use, and I know that every single person has felt better for entirely different reasons.

I'm not a medical doctor, but there are dozens, possibly hundreds, of medical doctors who are like-minded in this:  Dr Mercola, Dr Perricone, Dr Douglas Graham, just to name a few.

If you like the taste of soy and you believe it's healthy, then I'm not here to convince you otherwise.  I'm more interested in warning people off of starting to actively put large amounts of it in their diet out of the belief that it's a health food.

Sorry about the lack of sources here, but I don't have time to look for them this time.  I'm just operating from memory; some quick googling should bring up most if not all of what I'm talking about.

As a frothbeast male, I would really like to know if we have come to a definite answer, as my wife(the vegetarian) and her mother are amused that I may be losing some portion of my manliness by dining with her.....
I would be happiest if I could eat the same foods as my wife without growing boobs, and without going backwards through puberty.......

Hehe, no, no definite conclusion yet.  If it makes you feel better, the only Korean guy I know with boobs is Harisu...

In general, I don't think beans and grains are proper foods for humans, and they're too new in our diets on the evolutionary scale for our bodies to have totally adapted to their digestion. (Notice I'm saying *totally* adapted -- some ethnic backgrounds have adapted differently than others.) I've seen dozens of people experience much more radiant health when they cut back or eliminate their use, and I know that every single person has felt better for entirely different reasons.

Thanks for satisfying my curiousity, Venix.  Not for me, but interesting and looks like a well-thought-out perspective, too.

If you like the taste of soy and you believe it's healthy, then I'm not here to convince you otherwise. I'm more interested in warning people off of starting to actively put large amounts of it in their diet out of the belief that it's a health food.

I just had one more thought on this; I do think it's kind of disingenous for companies and industry to promote any food as a "health" food.  It's such a subjective line.  I mean, is white bread a health food?  Well, not compared to a carrot, but yes if compared to Twinkies. ;)

venix, alzheimers is on the rise everywhere in the world because people are living long enough to develop it.  All this palaver about food science doesn't make any difference to us ordinary people who simply eat in moderation and don't go to extremes in anything.

Miaokitty,

I checked out Harisu.  He/she is repellent/attractive.  I do not think a boobed frothbeast would look as good/bad as Harisu.

Does he/she have a spouse?

wiki says she's getting married May 19.

Is she marrying a man or woman?

She is marrying her boyfriend.  She is legally recognized as a woman now in Korea.

once again, He/she is repellent/attractive.

I didn't quite read it all, but... since I'm female, soy won't mess me up? Maybe drinking all this soy milk made my boobs bigger, seriously!

SWEET.

:P

If soy will give me bigger boobs ... bring it on.  ;-)

The fermented soy beans, or natto, I believe, are often on the menus of sushi restaurants. Once, my boyfriend at the time, who insists on trying everything once, ordered it. When our order was in, the sushi chef demanded to know who had ordered it and wanted to watch while we tried it.

I originally planned on trying it but was a bit thwarted by the smell. He ate one and had to set the rest aside because he couldn't look at it without feeling sick. I mean this boy could practically eat anything and Natto knocked him down.

I want to offer something to this discussion that I did not see raised. In North America all the soy beans are genetically modified and are not the natural soy that asians have safely eaten for many years. Monsanto and other companies are using us as guinea pigs to eat their modified products that give them higher profit margins. I think this single issue that USA soybeans are not the same as nature produced is enough of a reason to avoid them like the plague

A couple of quick links, I can't seem to find the one I found years ago that woke me up to the scary part of GMO foods. but this is a start

http://www.healthsalon.org/223/monsantos-gmo- soy-causes-mutilation-to-animals-russian-stud y/

http://www.bodyecology.com/06/11/09/soy_lecit hin_the_risks_if_you_choose_the_wrong_type_th e_benefits_if_you_choose_right.php



Steve

Hi all. Thank you for a very interesting discussion!

I have a long time interest in brain functioning (and particularly neural mechanisms related  to memory loss; Alzheimers, and working memory dysfunction; ADHD, autism).

I really enjoyed reading this thread because whilst a weight loss community forum is definitely NOT the place for strict academic debate, it "is" a place for dissemination of information. Nevertheless, all new research must be regarded with a healthy dose of scepticism, not only because some research centres have a vested interest in presenting a particular case (bias), but because (quite frankly) there is a lot of bad research out there (I know this to be so and feel okay saying so because I'm one of that scientific community, and also because I teach statistical analyis and research design at several universities).  Having said that, once I saw there was some debate and each person was prepared to provide the rationale for their argument (position) I got very excited  :J

With regard to the ORIGINAL POSTING, Jkr0319 asked whether a diet rich in soy might be bad for men.

I have an article here that I would like to introduce to this thread for further discussion. It introduces an additional interesting component in the question of the benefit of soy (specifically soy supplements and phytoestrogens) to the diet, in relation to the mechanisms that the original poster might have desired information about ? effects on female hormone functioning. This is a well cited article in a respectable peer-reviewed journal with my thoughts added in (italics).

Source: Patisaul, Dindo, Whitten, & Young (2001) Soy Isoflavone Supplements Antagonize Reproductive Behavior and Estrogen Receptor - and ß-Dependent Gene Expression in the Brain. Endocrinology Vol. 142, No. 7 2946-2952 (link: http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abst ract/142/7/2946 ).

The authors examined the effects of soy isoflavone supplements on estrogen-dependent behavior (in adult female rats). They do comment that  it might be of concern that isoflavone dietary supplements are becoming increasingly popular and are touted as ?health foods?  (this point, I think , generated much debate in this forum regarding political and health industry agendas)

So, back to the article; The regulation of oxytocin receptor expression in the brain is via an estrogen-dependent mechanism. Supplements of soy isoflavone resulted in a significant decrease in receptive (sexual) behavior in  these female rats, probably due to antiestrogenic (antagonist, stops estrogen being used) effects observed in the brain. These authors found that in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus, supplements of soy isoflavone REDUCED the estrogen-dependent regulation of oxytocin receptor by 10.5%. (Note: Oxytocin is released during orgasm in both sexes. Oxytocin is a female hormone released in females typically  during labor to assist with  uterine contraction, and after stimulation of the nipples. In nature, release of oxytocin facilitates birth and breastfeeding).

These results suggest that isoflavone acting as phytoestrogens  might prevent the brain from using estrogen (with the result being that a greater amount of oxytcin available, which may explain why (some) women have experineced increased breast engorgement. The effect on males would be the same. 

This article was sited by  Badger, Ronis, Hakkak, Rowlands and Korourian (2002) The Health Consequences of Early Soy Consumption, Journal of Nutrition, 132:559S-565S). link: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/ 132/3/559S

This research team talk about recent studies that show no long-term adverse effects of early exposure to soy formula but acknowledge that it is as yet unknown whether soy formula consumption by infants will result in health problems or benefits upon aging.

As with the other article I have cited, these researchers note that soy isoflavones can function as estrogen agonists, (antagonists or selective estrogen receptor modulators), depending on the conditions. Soy formula used in developed countires, like the US, is made with soy protein isolate containing isoflavones.

Most of us here on CC Vegetarian probably consider as a general rule that consuming soy milk is a healthy alternative to cows milk (indeed I was raised with soy milk not cows milk post weaning from breast-milk, as were my bothers, and my sons), but  these authors point out that the effects of diets with natural soy isoflavones (phytoestrogens) produced and consumed in the Eastern world differ significantly from those of diets to which purified soy isoflavones are added (e.g., the western diet). They do suggest however that soy protein processed to contain lower levels of isoflavones might still provide health benefits.

I have only presented two articles here to give you ?food for thought?, but it would seem to me, that as an intelligent person making healthy food choices, one of the things I would want to consider is the quality of the soy product I am eating.


 

Further to my comments above, the article by Patisaul et al (2001) concluded some interesting points with regard to the benefits of phytoestrogens for women post-menopause. I was interested because (at 43 with meonopause but a few years away LOL) my GP had recommended I start taking phytoestrogens. I thought that sounded like a great idea... but again, I will check the quality of the supplements :-)

"Although most studies of the estrogenic action of phytoestrogen action have been conducted using only one individual phytoestrogen, it is virtually impossible for consumers to obtain the purified compounds. Diets high in phytoestrogens, like traditional Asian diets and vegetarian diets, are high in a vast multitude of phytoestrogens, and all of the commercially prepared supplements, powders, and even soy-based infant formulas contain at least the two most common phytoestrogens, genistein and daidzein, in addition to several others. Multiple studies have shown that human plasma, urine, and breast milk from a wide variety of cultures contain many different phytoestrogens, making it necessary and imperative to study the combined effects of these compounds.

The mental health benefits of estrogen in women are well known and often used to argue for the use of Estrogen Replacement Therapy (ERP) in postmenopausal women. Specifically, ERT may protect against a decline in memory and alleviate depression. Because more and more women are looking to phytoestrogen-rich foods and supplements as a natural alternative to ERT, the impact of phytoestrogen supplementation on estrogen-dependent end points in the brain needs to be examined in greater detail before they can be advocated as an effective alternative to traditional ERT".

ummm....

Here is my 2 cents.   I used to love soy and ate soy and drunk soy milk a lot.  I did notice that 3  months after I started eating a lot of soy, my PERIODS became very HEAVY and much longer.  I thought I might need to be more careful and not eat soy and stop suddenlty.  But my periods continued too heavy.  I had to stay home for 2 days.  Later I discovered that I also was taking a women multivitamin that had isoflavones (soy).  It was in the * area and I had not noticed.  One day, after 2 years, I went to the drugstore and could not find that multivitamin.  I could not find it anywhere so I changed brands and type of multivitamin.  My next period was much much lighter.  I thought it was very odd, and checked the multivitamin and only them I noticed the isoflavones listed as one of the componets.  The change in bleeding volume was quite substantial. 

I also will mentioned that during the time I was eating, drinking and taking this vitamin I started having FIBROIDS that were growing very fast.  Fibroids grow with estrogen, and although at the time I looked all studies to see if the soy could have been causing that problem, all the MARKETING for SOY was very positive and was hiding the TRUE.   Be very careful with soy.  It had terrible effects on my life.  And I used to love it.  Fibroids cause infertility and a huge number of health problems.  Avoid soy since even though there are no defenite studies...I can tell for sure that it has been very harmful to my health.  Be careful with all the soy marketing in all web sites you read and AVOID SOY.  Good luck for you.