Squats, form, pain and running

1. I did my first serious strength training routine with a trainer yesterday. Per my demand, we started with squats. I've always neglected them and i am sure many here think of squats as only 'legs building' exercise. Whatever be it, i did about 10 squats with 25+25 lbs. (That was too much for me. I am NOT a bodybuilder/powerlifter. Well not yet .. optimism) I was more tired than after running a mile, which is expected. The first trial squat with bar alone was to get into proper form. Following is the best to my knowledge.

a. stand erect, but i put my feet a little forward (by 1-2 inches) than my body to force the weight thru heels and avoid balancing on toes.

b. I like wide stance, this also ensures i dont flex the knees inwards on the downward movement. I tried to keep the shins vertical throughout the exercise as much as i could but especially in the later half they were bent. I think it will come with practice.

c. Try to balance the weight on the glutes than knees, a full squat ensures that. The notes i have say u should push ur glutes backwards and not downwards during the downward movement. This keeps shins verticle and ensures ur weight is not drifting to knees. There should be no forward lean or loop in the back. Now to keep the spine vertical and avoid crushing of vertebrae, i tried to keep the chest out, belly tucked in, and kept looking at horizontal level or above. The problem is when i push glutes back, it creates a natural arch and tilts the torso a little forward. Not so much forward to go beyond where feet stand, but a little forward nevertheless. Is this fine or will it still cause crushing of vertebrae ? I kept my neck upright, no bend there.

d. The bar position was ok and i prefer to grip the bar just a little wider than shoulder width.

e. Breathing: inhale during downward movment and exhale coming up. I need to work on the upward movement - hold breath till half and then pump out.

Today my quads and hamstring are paining like anything. Glutes are a little better. I feel rather good at it. Although i do leg press and curls and couple other machine leg exercises they never gave me so much pain. I can walk et al but i can not run !! Good news (so far) is there is no pain in the knee joint nor in the vertebral column. The  neck is a little stiff but no pain there. I did not balance the bar on neck or even bent neck. May be i tried to keep it too erect. Should i try lowering the bar a little  say 1 cm from the traps ? Or i am fine? I know squats work wonders when u do them absolutely right. I don't want to invite injuries.

Experts, please advice !

Running : Now what do squats have to do with running. As i run on alternate days and started weight training on the rest, today is my run day. It's absolutely impossible to run considering the condition of my glutes, quads and hamstrings. Earlier i used to squat with only the bar (45lbs bar was good enf for me) and while running next day i would get pain at the hip-femur joint and occasionally in hamstrings. Then i stopped squats and it worked. Now i can not. Has any one of you faced this issue ?

I LOVE squatting.  its my fav thing to do.  If you are not used to it its gonna hurt like a bi#$% for a few days.  Try hopping on the stationary bike on your running days or try slow running with really long strides.  This helps warm and stretch the muscles.  Absolutely no lifting if your sore at all.  Eventually you will train your muscles, nerves, ligaments and tendons for squatting and recovery time will get a lot quicker and you will be able to run just fine, even right after lifting. 

Your joints should not hurt though.  Check your form and make sure you add weight very slowly.  I average adding 10lbs every 6 weeks or so.

Also I have never heard of not tilting your torso forward.  I was shown to do squats to keep the bar, knees and ankle in alignment as much as possible.  My back naturally sways a little when I squat but I may an effor to keep it straighter.  You can't poke your butt out when squatting without bending slightly forward at the hips.

Thanks Agana ! I am mostly going to row and cycle today. I might walk but no running. Running is quite tempting to me. If i start running, i know i will go for it and end up doing damage than any gain. And good to read you LOVE squats.

Being a man, for more cultural than rational reasons, i need to lift heavy. But yes, i am not going to add weights too soon.

I liked that u mentioned 'nerves' along with ligaments etc. That means u ARE into squats :). The body will take time to get used to the movement.

Talk about correct form and all the points from a to e are about form. If you have any suggestions, please let me know. The pain all over legs is actually an indication that no amount of leg press, curls etc can substitute the level of workout that squats give (just 1 set of 10 !! ) . It's like a sweet pain :) unless it is due to improper form. I am eagerly waiting comments on my form/movement.

There are different styles of squats, and details can change a lot.

Olympic squatting is generally done with the bar very high on the shoulders.  Here's a good description with photos.  You'll see that his knees go beyond his toes, and his shins are nowhere near vertical at the bottom.  He's been doing squats for more than 50 years(!), and has no knee or back problems.  Even if you don't want to do that style of squatting, I still recommend reading the article, because it also has lots of good advice about warming up properly for squats and maintaining proper back position.

Don't give any thought to how much weight is on the bar -- unless you're a competitive power lifter, it's completely irrelevant.  As you've discovered, you can get a killer workout at first with light weight.  The crucial thing is maintaining good form.  In fact, I strongly suggest reducing the weight you're currently using -- some muscle soreness is good and expected, but extreme soreness isn't necessary to make progress.  As agana said, your recovery time will improve dramatically if you keep at it, but there's no need to shock it into doing so ;-)

Here's a suggestion:  because form is so very important in squats, stop a set after no more than 3 reps at the start.  So, e.g., instead of doing 1 set of 10, do 3 sets of 3, but still with the same lighter weight.  That will triple the amount of practice you get in starting out with good form.  A beginner often gets to that point but loses good form dramatically as they fight to complete "the required" number of reps.  That's counterproductive.  A better learning idea is to stop a set after the very first rep in which form starts to slip.  Then thoroughly catch your breath and start over again.  Squatting is such an intense exercise you'll get a productive workout regardless.

About breathing, don't hold your breath long!  Squatting makes heavy demands on your heart, and holding your breath creates an additional blood pressure spike.  Ideally, complete your inhalation just a bit before reaching bottom and hold it only as long as it takes to start rising again.  Then purse your lips and exhale slowly against lip pressure on the rest of the way up.  The kind of abdominal contraction needed to exhale against lip pressure provides some of the same core stability as holding your breath, but is much kinder to your heart, and deliberately exaggerating that contraction can help too.

While I'm generally a fan of not pausing at either the top or the bottom of most lifts, at the top of a squat especially it can be helpful to pause long enough to gulp in and out another big lungful of air.  And when you get so good at squatting that it's no longer a challenge ;-), look on the web for the "20 rep breathing squat" routine, which will again make you feel as beat up as you felt today :-)

I was actually very irritated at the gym this morning cause both squat cages and the hipsled were taken.  I had to resort to the squat machine and weight sumo squats  grrrrr.  Dudes think they own those cages for some reason.

Also, once squats get easier, instead of increasing weight you can do half squats.  Thats where you squat all the way down like your butt is brushing a bench then pulse halfway up and down.  Ouch it burns so good.  YOu can also change feet posistioning.  I will do ones with a wide stance, a very closed stance and with my feet pointed in and out slightly.  this gets you to work the quads and hinder in slightly different ways for full muscle stimulation.

mmmmm....I want to do some squats right now!!!! lol

tgpish: Thanks a bunch for the link. I read the article including the warm up and looks to be of great help. So i won't worry too much about keeping my shins vertical. I see that the material i have refers to what he describes as 'power lifter squat' -  the low-bar squat used by powerlifters. Powerlifters position the bar a little below the top of the shoulders and squat with their hips shooting back and their lower legs almost vertical. The low-bar position puts more stress on the lower back, because the back is tilted forward rather than upright. From the pictures i find, he's also arched his back so there is no loop and that seems to be critical to avoid sheering of vertibrae. He's also looks like leaned a little forward due to the arch (leaned = his torso is not in exact vertical plane) w/o back loop.  Overall i feel i am not really off the form. Head straight, back arched, knees a little beyond toes (if at all). I do like to go all the way down may be for more psychological reasons or too much faith on the notes that i've. But with wider stance and glutes pushing back i wont get the cushioning effect when calves and thighs meet that he highlights. I will also try weight plates.

The biggest learning is i should not concentrate too much on my shins are vertical or not and my glutes are going backwards or not. Looks like either way (olympic way or powerlifter way) is just fine.

But still a question remains: The body weight should fall on heels/midfoot or toes? or anything will do?

Thanks for the breathing tip. I will not try to hold up my breath on way up. Infact i was not holding it y'day, was thinking of doing that next time. I will try the pursed lips exhale for sure. Thanks a ton for the 3X3 idea. That looks like the best thing to do without compromising form.

"when you get so good at squatting that it's no longer a challenge" - that's a long way ahead :)

agana: Thanks to you too !

For some reasons i am told not to use the 'smith' machine for squats. Cos it doesn't teach you to balance the bar, which is very crucial and also the free weight squatting strengthens synergies in all the muscle groups involved and a greater transfer of functional strength. tgpish/bodyscience are the best persons to comment on this. It's good to do squats though when you dont have a chance to use squat cages.

Half squats? Doesn't look like a good idea to me !! Also i won't go for a pinned legs stance. I think any stance closer than shoulder width would compromise stability. tgpish/bodyscience ?

LOL @ doing squats right now :) :) I'vent really seen girls enthusiastic @ squats (squats with barbell). Thumbs up !

inci_vinci, I delayed responding trying to find an excellent explanation I stumbled into once.  Here it is!

That explains the physics of the "parallel" and "deep" squats, and has links to animated photographs of people doing each with good form.

Physics constrains how your body has to move to retain balance.  Regardless of how you squat, the combined center of mass (the single center of mass of you and the weight combined) must be above "but near the middle of" your feet throughout the movement, else it would be physically impossible to avoid tipping over.  So, as it says, in both kinds of squat it's best to distribute the load equally (well, as equally as possible) between heel and forefoot.  If you do so, the center of mass must be as close to the middle of your foot as possible, which gives the best possible balance.

Toes aren't strong enough to bear the load of heavy squats, but do keep them pressed firmly (comfortably so, don't strain here) on the ground.  If you start to tip forward, it will be instinctive to press down harder with your toes to regain balance, and indeed that's one of the right things to do.  The other is to reduce the forward bend of your trunk ("straighten up" a bit), to get the center of mass back closer to your heels.

That's part of what makes mastering the squat a challenge!  The center of mass of you and a barbell combined is much higher than your body's center of mass alone, and more so the heavier the weight you squat with.  This means your nerves and muscles need to learn new balancing skills.

Clear as mud?  Read the article several times, and I'm sure it will start to "click".

About Smith machines, you're far better off without them unless free-weight squats prove too hard on your knees, ankles or back even with good form.  They make it physically impossible to fall forward, backward, or to either side.  That also means they rob you of the benefits of needing to recruit stabilizer muscles to keep your balance, and can actually make it much easier to fall into rotten form (the "reward" for doing many things wrong in a free-weight squat is that you'll lose balance and fall over :-)).

If you don't have a squat cage, you bet it's still good to squat, but obviously use lighter weight.  That's a good excuse to go for more reps instead.  The photos of Clarence Bass showed him deep-squatting with more than his body weight and without a cage, but for him that is a light weight ;-)

tgpish, i am ever so grateful to you for always coming up with excellent references to ruminate :)

Here is the link to the technique that i am following. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5124176-pos t825.html It's powerlifter squat but I find nothing of this is inconsistent with the physics and it explains in details the justification of doing something the way they say it should be done. Please spend 5 mins to go thru that and let me know if anything looks inappropriate. Sadly, for me, there are no pictures/videos to demonstrate.

The reason i asked the 'heel/midfoot/toes' question is due to the weight plates under the heels suggestion of Clarence Bass. Will this shift your balance to toes ? 

By moving the glutes backwards you recruit very little of calves and very little support from toes but take more from glutes (stronger muscles.. ouch it hurts :) ). Honestly i find it hard to push the glutes back and complete the full squat, more so trying to keep the shins straight. They have to move beyond toes for balance. The link u gave today has a link to the  powerlift that i was doing.  http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximu s/BBSquat.html Even here it doesnt go all the way down. So i would start with pushing the glutes down but a little backwards to ensure heels are engaged and as i go down the butt will go down and naturally the knees are going to flex outward and beyond the toes. I just practised a few right here w/o any bar/weight and it feels ok now. As i was doing full squat, my quads were also engaged rather that is where the most soreness is.

Comments/suggestions ?

You found a good article there, inci_invci!  Note that because the author is a proponent of squatting "deep", it's not really the "powerlifter" squat in Bass's terminology -- it's more like Olympic squatting.

Please realize that you can't learn the fine points by reading.  Reading is great, but necessarily limited.  For example, where that article says "the shins should be as close to vertical as possible", it means exactly what it says.  It's too easy to misread that as "the shins should be kept vertical".  That's impossible (well, without falling over).  The deeper you go, the more your shins have to deviate from vertical, but that's a necessary consequence, not an end to be pursued for its own sake.  "As much as necessary, not more" here.

The best thing is to watch squatters squatting, live and in person, and ask them to watch you squat.  That's indispensable.  Listen to what they say about your form, and reread all the good articles you can find repeatedly.

About the plates under your heels, no, that won't shift the weight to your toes.  You may be picturing standing on your toes, but having something solid under your heels is very different.  In fact, stand up nicely balanced right now, then slip a book under your heels and stand again.  You'll probably find that more weight is on your heels that way, until you shift your body subtly to even the load out again.

I don't advise using plates to start with.  You shouldn't be lifting heavy at the start, and part of what happens in the first few weeks (especially if you squat deep) is increasing ankle, knee and hip flexibility.  Best to let that happen without "help".  If, over time, you find that you simply can't maintain a natural back arch as weight increases, then the plate trick can be helpful.  The clearest effect of using plates is to reduce the maximum amount the foot has to bend toward the shin, which is mostly about ankle flexibility in the "foot up" direction.  That will improve if you don't use plates, and perhaps improve enough so that you never need plates.

Note that it's too early for you to judge which muscles any given variation will work hardest as you progress.  It's always the weakest link that breaks first ;-)  In general, the higher the bar on your shoulders, the more the quads, and the lower the bar the more the glutes.  This really isn't due to the height of the bar, it's more that the higher the bar the farther forward the bar can be (less shoulder mass forcing it backwards), and moving the center of mass forward or backward even a fraction of an inch can have big effects (of course this isn't fully obvious until you work your way up to multiple-of-bodyweight squats).

If you're going to squat deep, you should keep the bar high on the shoulders, at least at the start.  In general, the deeper you go, the more forward the center of mass in the initial position needs to be to retain balance in the lowest position.

misreading the lines - Gotcha !

watch the squatters and ask them watch over you- Unfortunately very few ppl in the local Y do squat. I'ven't see any !! I've seen ppl doing it on Smith Machine, but not free squats. I'm apprehensive about asking them watch over me. I took a trainer with me the other day, when i did it the first time. I will fix another appointment with him next week. The trainer didn't point out anything last time (there must be something that he shud have) rather i kept asking him Qs - where the bar should be held, how should the shins move (he said dont worry @ them vertical or not), how the glutes should move. He also put a pad under the bar to avoid friction. it raises the CCOG artificially (and the article i've read says it shudnt be done), but i thought it's ok and as you say it's good to keep the bar high if you are doing a deep squat. Next time i would do the best i can and ask the trainer to watch closely and listen to his advice.

As you say the first few weeks are about increasing joints flexibility so i will reduce the weights to minimum and get used to the movement.

Thanks again tgpish !

heck even I am pickin up a few pointers.  Yeah I never see girls squatting especially with the barbell.  They do the nancy squats holding 10lbs dumbells....blech.  Come to think of it the other day was the only time I seen 2 guys doing squats....hmmm interesting.  I  only use the machine as a last resort.  they suck for the most part and all the trainers at the Y would love to throw out all the machines.

I think I do more of the olympic style.....was taught in highschool by my gym teacher who had a neck like a tree trunk.  There were only two girls in the weight lifting class.  It was so much fun

tgpish, u can say 'weakest link' about my quads as they are the most sore, but honestly i will tell you the next day i could feel them if i slide over my fingers. And if i sit on the floor, folding my knees, they wud feel rock hard. It may be true in others' case but i had never felt my quads like this before (you can laugh at me for that:) ). They are pretty much back to normal now and i am thinking of putting a small run in today.

I also saw the 'clean and jerk' and 'snatch' videos at the link u provided. The 'arch in back' was the foremost learning !! Thanks a bunch !

agana: Glad to see you too could pick up something out of this thread. And looks like all the 'Y's have same type of trainers and members :)

agana, you're a treasure!  Keep squattin'.  Those guys on the machines and the ladies daintily holding 10-pound dumbbells, well, you'll not only be dancing on their graves, you'll be leaping over their headstones with ease ;-)

inci_vinci, don't stress too much over form.  This isn't ballet, it's just that many people "instinctively" do harmful things at first when squatting.  So long as your back is arched throughout, the weight is on your shoulders rather than your neck, your knees and toes point in the same direction, and the lifting is done overwhelmingly with your legs and butt rather than your back, you're fine.

Most other advice amounts to ways to help you achieve those primary goals.  For example, you've probably read that you should look up when squatting.  That's not an end in itself, it's that when people look down, the head naturally tends to follow, and before you know it the shoulders follow the head down too and they end up rounding their backs.  That's the bad part.  If you look up instead, then the head just as naturally tends to stay up, and shoulders back, and that helps maintain your back's natural arch.

If there aren't any dedicated squatters at the Y, you could drop in on local gyms.  Most will let a non-member hang out for a daily fee.

If lifts like the clean-and-jerk and snatch intrigue you, you may be able to find an Olympic-style lifting club in your area.  You really need an expert trainer to guide you with those -- they're much more like ballet (intricate sequences of precise moves), but with crushingly heavy weights ;-) -- learning how to squat is dead easy in comparison.

Oh I have a little question.  I alway feel like I am cheating when I count the bar in my total weight squatted.  How do the big boys count it.  Do they count the bar in the total wieght or just the addtional weight they put on it.  I have been squatting by myself for so long I forget  (blushes)

Definitely count the weight of the bar!  It's like this:  if you weighed the whole deal, bar and plates, on a truck scale, that's how much you're actually lifting.  Your muscles have no idea that part of that weight is in the bar.  Similarly, when you weigh yourself, you shouldn't subtract the weight of your bones either ;-)

I know its silly.  Somehow I got it into my head that counting the bar is for nancies.  I have no idea where is came from  so thanks.

tgpish: yep i got the message. Just do basics right and the other  things will fall in place automatically.

Wed-thru-fri were killer in terms of office work. No visits to gym.

Will workout today/tomorrow.

Thanks !!