Why do strength training during weight loss?

This may be a naive question, but I've read many posts saying it's difficult, if not impossible, to gain muscle during weight loss.  If that is the case, what is the point of strength training during weight loss?  Is it just to set up good habits? 

Lately I've been losing my motivation to do my strength training so this just might be me looking for an out :)  So, any good arguments why it should be done would be helpful!

[PS - I wasn't sure if this should be in the weight loss or fitness forum.  I went with fitness figuring they'd know more about why it's important]

Because it will limit the amount of muscle you will lose.  Losing weight is not only the reduction of fat but your body will also burn muscle tissue.  The amount of muscle mass you lose will be determined on if you do weight training or not.  If you dont do weights you will lose more muscle tissue than if you continue to do weights.

The easy way to think about this is you either use it or lose it.  If you dont use your muscles they will go away.  To look toned and healthy you need muscle.

And because lifting weights is the most efficient way to burn fat.

That makes sense - I knew there must be a logical explanation :) Thanks!

Original Post by floggingsully:

And because lifting weights is the most efficient way to burn fat.

That's why I started but I got all confused by the whole idea that you're not really gaining muscle.

Lol, apparently I moved too slowly... I answered only to post and find that other people beat me to it.  I guess I type too slowly!  

In any case, the above posters are absolutely right!

Hang in there!  It's worth it! :-)

EDIT: Cuz everyone else already said it all!

Plus the more muscle you have the more fat your body is able to burn. Your muscle is what keeps your metabolism up. I don't know who or why anyone would say that you don't gain muscle during weight loss. That's totally un true and if you AREN'T gaining muscle you aren't working hard enough. You need to be doing at LEAST 30 minutes 2-3 times a week of weight training, 12-15 reps, 3 sets of each exercise, at a weight that means at the last rep you can barely lift it.

I've NEVER tried getting in shape by doing weight training, but I met a new friend who I have been working out with regularly who has weight experience and I look better now with the weights AND cardio than I ever have before. DO IT! :)

"I don't know who or why anyone would say that you don't gain muscle during weight loss. That's totally un true and if you AREN'T gaining muscle you aren't working hard enough."

-If you aren't eating enough calories to maintain your current mass, how are you supposed to gain additional mass?

Despite the nonstop discussions about weight lifting, I had this same question an hour ago during my walk.  I understand the point about muscle burning more calories and getting a longer lasting calorie burn.  But does that still happen when you're at a calorie deficit? 

 

Two studies for you:

  Hunter et.al. : Resistance Training Conserves Fat-free Mass and Resting Energy Expenditure Following Weight Loss -  and:

D, DE, and DES demonstrated a similar and significant (P <= 0.05) reduction in body mass (-9.64, -8.99, and -9.90 kg, respectively) with fat mass comprising 69, 78, and 97% of the total loss in body mass, respectively. 
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 31(9):1320-1329, September 1999 -

A third of the weight loss in the diet-only group was muscle(2.98 kg, or 6.5lbs) and the diet+cardio exercise group also lost significant muscle(1.98kg or 4.35lbs), while the diet+cardio+strength training group mostly retained theirs, losing 0.297kg or just shy of  0.6lbs of muscle.

 This is why you lift in a calorie deficit. To retain the muscle you do have. Since New Years I've done essentially zero cardio while doing a consistent weight training program and lost 17lbs in 11 weeks.

 I credit this mostly to diet and maintaining a consistent calorie deficit. The lifting certainly has helped in creating that deficit, but the main point of lifting hard in a calorie deficit is to retain muscle.

 Unless you're Duke or Jasontarin with their superior muscle-building genetics, that is. Their one-in-a-million genetics allow them to build muscle in a significant calorie deficit, so it's possible for some people. But you do need to be born that way, and it doesn't apply to 99.98% of us who weren't ;)

I'll tell you what if you don't lift 2-3 times a week you should.  I didn't lift for 2 weeks because I was sick and today my weights were at least 5# less on every exercise.  I can't believe I have lost that much strength in 2 weeks.  I am back to lifting every other day from now on.

Original Post by lonestar45:

I'll tell you what if you don't lift 2-3 times a week you should.  I didn't lift for 2 weeks because I was sick and today my weights were at least 5# less on every exercise.  I can't believe I have lost that much strength in 2 weeks.  I am back to lifting every other day from now on.

 Also, if you're a woman and you value things like your bones, you should be lifting regularly. If you don't care about your bones and don't mind being frail and weak as you age, by all means skip the weight lifting.

You can actually gain some muscle while losing weight.  At least that's what I have seen from experience.   When losing weight I definetly noticed my arms getting larger and more defined while the weight continued to drop. 

also--

i feel like people who lose weight while shaping their body come out looking a lot better than people who just lose weight without shaping, those people tend to get a kinda sloppy-skinny look.

i'm not thin, but very toned and i think that compared to being my size and not firm/shaped...it's a good thing.

def do it!

Another question, does resistance training (resistance bands) count as strength training?  Especially for a total newbie?  I've got Billy Blanks Basic Training that uses Bands.  I don't have the bands and am still getting muscle burn.  Is it worth it for me?  It's easier now to utilize this than to buy weights or join a gym. 

I can barely do push ups, that's how weak I am. 

 Resistance is resistance. The question is how well-matched your muscles and the external resistance is, not the source of it.

Hey, barely being able to do pushups is good - means it's still strength training for you.

 Once you pass 12 repetitions of any exerice it starts to become more strength endurance training - it's a continuum of course, but once you pass 20 reps it's entirely strength endurance you're working on, your maximal strength won't improve at all.

 Friend of mine who can easily crank out 50 pushups in one go has long since passed the point where he derives any benefit strength-wise from plain pushups. I can do about 30-35 decline pushups with my legs on a chair - been a while since that was anything but endurance training for me as well. (I can still do one-armed pushups for strength training, but I prefer using bench presses since my balance is questionable at best.)

 Not that strength endurance isn't useful, but it's not a strength quality that 'counts' for resistance training purposes.

 You should be able to push past the strength training continuum and enter the strength endurance range in about 6-12 weeks of focused training, for that particular pushup variation.

 You can do things with leverages and stances to make things more difficult for yourself so that you can stay within the sub-12  rep range, but working at a biomechanical disadvantage can be risky for your joint health and does not generally lead to you training a proper range of motion for the joints and muscles involved, leading to possible dysfunctions over the long term.

 Also, bodyweight does not offer you the possibility of graduated resistance that weight training does. For a lot of people bodyweight is simply far too much resistance to even contemplate - think about doing an unassisted chinup versus a lat pulldown. They both work the same muscles, but one of them you can adjust to your level of strength developement, the other you can't. (Yes, assisted pullup machines exists. That's not bodyweight training though, you're using accomodating resistance to lower the strain on your muscles to manageable proportions.)

 It's also a question of goals - if you're a martial artist and you want strength endurance in the upper body pushing chain, cranking out hundreds of pushups in a day has its uses. If you're a dieter strength training to avoid the muscle loss associated with a deficit, bodyweight resistance training is often either far too much, or far too little for your needs.

 All of which is a long-winded way of saying: can you do more than 12 reps using the resistance bands? In that case, double up on the band and see if that helps put you into the appropriate strength training range. 

thanks, you answered my questions. 

Hey all, this is a great topic, and I think it should be....................
BUMPED!

I learn a lot more by reading this, and I've always have weight train, and lost weight with lifting weights, cardio, proper diet, and pushing myself for higher goals.

Melkor posted some great studies. "Thanks"

Alle, great thread- and thanks for posting.

Lynn ;)

I know this is an older post, but I've actually heard that you don't gain muscle when you are in a calorie deficit - deficit meaning the calories you need to just maintain your body.  That's why in jails/prisons, they keep them on low cal diets so that they won't gain muscle and have less energy to kick the crap out of each other (although this also probably varies from state to state).  I say this because I know that I've gained muscle in certain areas of my body.  Despite the fact that I have less fat than when I started, I know that by feeling them (since I still can't really see them), they are in fact larger, bigger, stronger.  If you can't build muscle, then how come your body can also lift higher amounts of weights after training for a bit?

Any thoughts?  And sorry if this is a bit of a devil's advocacy thing.  Not meant to be, just curious.

 It's called 'newbie shock growth' - your body is so shocked by your new form of exercise that it adds muscle even in a calorie deficit.

 It usually amounts to 1-2lbs total of muscle mass over the initial 8 weeks of training - like in this study or this one, but normally stops there. Or even starts to go away again, in at least one study they found a gain of 1lbs muscle at the 16-week mark. The study didn't say, but it would be interesting to track body composition over the full 16 weeks and see if there is actually a gain/loss curve.

 You can also become significantly stronger even in a calorie deficit because strength/maximal power output is only about 2/3 correlated with muscle size/cross-sectional area, the rest is due to neural factors like motor unit recruitment, rate coding of motor neurons and neural efficiency so you can become significantly stronger without adding significant muscle mass. Well, up to the limits of the difference between trained and untrained muscle for our current level of muscle mass anyway - once you've finished tapping the neural factors you need to add mass to become stronger.

Original Post by melkor:

 You can also become significantly stronger even in a calorie deficit because strength/maximal power output is only about 2/3 correlated with muscle size/cross-sectional area, the rest is due to neural factors like motor unit recruitment, rate coding of motor neurons and neural efficiency so you can become significantly stronger without adding significant muscle mass. Well, up to the limits of the difference between trained and untrained muscle for our current level of muscle mass anyway - once you've finished tapping the neural factors you need to add mass to become stronger.

 i can attest to that going the opposite way. i was sick for a couple of weeks & while my muscles did not really shrink (to the naked eye), i certainly lost a lot of strength for a couple of weeks.  but then again my neurons always seem to be short-circuited some where, if its not my muscles then some where else