Let's talk about kids being bullied/harrassed...

I'm a mother of two beautiful children ages 5 and 10.  I also have a 16 year old sister who lives with me.  I can't imagine the heartache the mothers from GA and MA is feeling right now.

Just in case you haven't heard, but an 11 year old boy from GA hung himself last week after school because he was being bullied at school.  A couple of weeks before that a 12 year old boy did the same in MA because of being bullied also.

I'd like to hear thoughts from parents regarding these two tragic events.  As a mother of a 10 year old boy and a 5 year old girl it really scares me as to what may be going on at school now a days.  I know kids can be so cruel and mean, but when something tragic like this occurs, I feel that we as parents should step up our game.  I'm not saying just to protect our children, but keep our children from being the bully as well.

It seems as if kids are becoming more and more cruel using language not suitable for them.  I'm wondering if this is steaming from the home or more from the media?

What are your thoughts?

we have been beyond blessed that we haven't dealt with this personally with our kids...they are not bullied nor do they bully...

but it does seem more and more commonplace...it is heart breaking.  I have to think it is lack of discipline in the home...how the parents talk to one another...there has to be SOMETHING that is making it more...

I have often wondered if the time tested "rule" of punching the bullier in the face to stop him is really  the best thing...kids can't stand up for them selves anymore...

it is heartbreaking

this might seem a bit harsh but I think the best way to deal with a bully is to recoginize the fact that your child is in a dangerous abusive relationship against there will.

Imagion if you had someone at your work who assulted you and verbaly abused you.  You would call the police, but because the abuser is a child we call them a Bully and don't take it as serious as it is.

Bullies wern't born evil, getting the police involved may turn up some child abuse on the part of the bullie's parents.  Bullys almost always come from abusive or neglectfull families.

Teach your child self defence and encourage them to USE it.  No one wants their child to have to use violence however to tell them to simply turn the other cheek creates in them a feeling that they don't have a right to defend themselves against an attacker.

That in turn creates a feeling of worthlessness, which in turn creates a feeling of deserving it, which in turn can lead to suicide.

One good hit.  One hit will stop a bully.  One bloody nose that reminds him that your child is not a victem.

I am right there with ya lil!

there are a few things that i think are salient here - and this comes out of 11 years working in schools, primary, elementary, and secondary.

first, bullies always see themselves as victims.  so all that anti-bullying programing that's been going on in schools - wonderful, except that the kids who are on the business end of the bullying don't identify themselves as offenders.  they nod and agree and answer all the questions correctly, because they know what it feels like to be bullied.

second, the term "bullying" diminishes the severity of what's going on.  i prefer the term "harassment" because it's a legal term, and it carries much more weight with both kids and adults.

third, the stuff that kids need to learn to prevent this (on both ends) needs to be learned at home.  it's about (a) treating people with respect, whether they earn it or not, and (b) having a degree of resilience against other people's words and deeds.  kids get those skills from having a solid foundation, unconditional love, and absolute safety in their own homes, where it matters. 

I think that self-defense instruction builds confidence in children, however, I do not advocate hitting (unless the kid is hit first).  I think the solution to bullying is a combination of parents and teachers/education system teaching kids to respect each other - i.e. bullying will not be tolerated in school or anywhere else.  The parents need to be aware of the example they are setting and the teachers need to "teach" how you treat other people in a positive manner.

It should be discussed in the classroom just as math is taught.  Parents need to be talking and closely watching their children for depression and pediatricians need to be teaching parents about signs of childhood depression.  So I guess it needs to be a multi-educational, awareness in order to really address the problem IMO.

This is really a "lame" example but the Duggar family that have all those kids teach their kids rules on " no hitting" etc. and the kids can list them all because it has been drilled into them.  Maybe we need to "drill" into kids what is acceptable and how to act.  Just my 2 cents.

Kids have always been cruel.  I was bullied horribly for a time as a child.   Today's children seem to have more inventive ways to be cruel at their disposal... text messaging and so forth.  However, I think that for a child to be driven to suicide it may say as much about the victim as it does about the bullies.  What enables one child to brush off playground taunts but leaves another thinking that death is the best option?  And what tools do we need to equip children with so that they are in the first group and not the second?

My feeling is that the only solution is vigilance and cooperation on the part of parents and teachers.  Parents need to be alert to any alteration in their child's behaviour, talk to them at home and schools have to operate strict anti-bullying policies, fully supported by all parties. 

At my son's school they seem to have fairly regular sessions where they're encouraged to work as teams, and roleplay problems like bullying.  When he was on the receiving end of some bad treatment in the playground a few years ago I'll admit that I advised him that a well-aimed punch might be quicker than a lot of PC chit-chat... He got into trouble for it but only briefly and doesn't seem to have been bothered again.

haha, Akgal, you would hate my Dad.

He always said, Don't wait for the other guy to hit you!

I have to agree with him... If you are in clear danger and the attacker has stated that they are going to beat you, I think you should absolutly hit them as hard as you can.  Your with in your right and it's legaly self defence.   Particularly because Bullies are generally larger. 

Think of it this way, How well are you going to bounce back from getting punched in the face by someone larger then you?  Will you beable to come back quick enough before they have you on the ground and are kicking your guts out?  The child's safty is more important then this silly notion of who hit first.

The bully is out to break your kid, they want to inflict serious damage.  Your kid just wants to get away...

I say Hit first ask questions later. 

when my daughter was bullied by a female classmate at the beginning of her 6th grade year, i enrolled her in martial arts classes

the school was no help

their advice was for my daughter to notify a teacher after an incident occurred -- not acceptable to me, but if she hit the other girl, no matter who acted first, both girls would be suspended

in martial arts, you learn to be aware of your surroundings to avoid putting yourself in a dangerous position to begin with, you gain self-confidence which has the effect of making you a less desirable target for a bully, and you learn how to evade and block attacks against you if they do come

a month after she began taking lessons, the bullying just stopped - the other girl did have her own problems (a raging alcholic dad and a mom addicted to Rx pills among other things) but she decided that my daughter wasn't a good target anymore

today, my daughter is a black belt and it gives me a lot of peace of mind now that she is 17 and is dating

I think that including a martial arts lesson three times a day during elementary school would be helpful in reducing the amount of harrassment that occurs in schools. (and it would have other benefits as well, like teaching how to focus your attention and energy on something, how to be disciplined, respect, courage -- i would want the kids to learn the forms, and not so much the striking or kicking techniques) It wouldn't be the worst thing if teachers learned a martial art too.

Original Post by gi-jane:

  However, I think that for a child to be driven to suicide it may say as much about the victim as it does about the bullies.  What enables one child to brush off playground taunts but leaves another thinking that death is the best option?  And what tools do we need to equip children with so that they are in the first group and not the second?

I agree with you. 

yay Me too...

But I think it's important that we really look at these "bullies" 

They are almost always abused, and they are almost always taking out the same agression and violence that is used against them at home.  These children are in danger and need to be helped.

When adults and teachers see abusive behavior in kids and simply say, "oh well." the teachers should loose their jobs.

Confidence - honestly earned through effort, and not just the self-esteem speak kids hear - seems to be key to avoid this kind of harrassment.

Well, schools are a bit different in the realm of "self defense." Case in point, a boy at my mom's highschool saw another boy beating up a girl. I mean punching, kicking and throwing this little girl around ( his girlfriend who just broke-up with him) so this guy steps in and beats the crap otta this Bully kid. The Goog guy recieved a nice 10 day suspension and a hearing scheduled to see if he should be expelled for fighting. He eventually was sent to the Alternative School for a semester, but just missed being expelled. The GOOD guy! If you hit, push, or "defend" yourself against a bully, then 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the same punishment as the bully. ( at least in California)

 My sister Mag was thrown into a mud puddle by a bully when she was in 2nd grade. She ran home crying to my mother and begged to not go back to school. Mom grabbed the "Purple Friendship" book and marched back to my sister's class. She read that book to the class and Mag had no more problems for the rest of the year.

Parent involvment in the class room and home is one way to combat this bullying. If you have a positive pressence around the entire class, then all the kids might see what a Grown Up is really like. You don't have to be a Molly Homemaker, but comming in once a month, or once a semester to help out for a day might go a long way in helping your child, and maybe some other child.

  Now, if my kid was still being picked on, then I'd give him 2 weeks to take care of it his way before I'd step in and march right up to the principle, teachers, school board, whom ever I needed to see until the situation is remidied. I'd ask the principal to schedule a meeting with the bullies parents to see if we can come to an agreement about how children should be acting in school. They don't have to be buddy buddy, but your kid has no right to harrass, threaten or intimidate my child. And vice versa

Oh, and you can call the cops on the little punks. Just a visit from a police officer might be the turning point in this little miscreant's life! Imagine a  kid being told that if he doen't shape up he'll be in JuV untill he's 18! Yeah, that might work a bit!!

Original Post by m0m6:

   I'd ask the principal to schedule a meeting with the bullies parents to see if we can come to an agreement about how children should be acting in school. They don't have to be buddy buddy, but your kid has no right to harrass, threaten or intimidate my child. And vice versa

 I like this solution.  The parents need to be involved in this.  I think it's critical in resolving issues like this before they get out of hand.  This is the very first step that I think I would take as well.

If you are in clear danger and the attacker has stated that they are going to beat you, I think you should absolutly hit them as hard as you can.  Your with in your right and it's legaly self defence.   Particularly because Bullies are generally larger. 

If this is the situation I agree also that you should hit them, but the school will suspend both of them.  A friend of my son was training to be a black belt and a bully came up behind him in h.s. and hit him on top of the head(for no reason), and the black belt student turned around and broke the kid's nose.  Lesson learned. Both were suspended.

However, bullying comes in alot of different ways nowdays not all physical.  And i think we should teach our kids to help protect those children who are not as strong emotionally or physically.  Otherwise the sensitive child internalizes alot of crap and it can come out as suicide or they are bringing guns to school to protect themselves.  Yes, I know schools are ignoring alot of bullying but they shouldn't be.

Original Post by m0m6:

...so this guy steps in and beats the crap otta this Bully kid...

maybe you misspoke, but beating the crap outta somebody isn't exactly (self) defence. 

the capacity to justify violence is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem.

edit: i also think it's a big mistake to think it's simple to distinguish between bully and victim.  it's rarely clear cut.

having a talk with the other parents sounds like a good and reasonable idea

and then you learn that the other parents are a raging alcoholic dad and a drug-addicted mom (divorced)

clearly this kid needed some intervention in her family life, but i'm not sure foster care would have automatically been better

my focus was on making sure my daughter was protected

i agree with the boy who broke the nose of the boy who hit him on top of the head being suspended -- martial arts is for defense, not retaliation.

Original Post by pgeorgian:

Original Post by m0m6:

...so this guy steps in and beats the crap otta this Bully kid...

maybe you misspoke, but beating the crap outta somebody isn't exactly (self) defence. 

the capacity to justify violence is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem.

edit: i also think it's a big mistake to think it's simple to distinguish between bully and victim.  it's rarely clear cut.

 The reasonable thought that you or someone close to you is in danger (physical or other wise) can cover self defense. Usually it only apllies to family members, but if you see someone beating another person and you DON'T do anything, then you can face a criminal charge as well.  Not usually, but it is possible. Especially if the person is seriously injured and you just stand by and watch.

But the main point was to demonstrate how defending yourself or others can land you in trouble, even if you were the victim.

Original Post by m0m6:

But the main point was to demonstrate how defending yourself or others can land you in trouble, even if you were the victim.

well, then i think you missed the mark.  pulling the kid off his ex-girlfriend, hitting him once if necessary, that could be justified as defending the girl. 

beating the crap out of him - that's assault.  it might have felt justified at the time, but it wasn't.

If the school refuses to protect our children against bullies and then Punishes our children for defending themselves I think it's time to sue the **** out of the school.  They have a responsiblilty for our kids safty if they refuese to take it seriously then we as parents should make them.

Of course when I was in school... I got in a TON of fights.  So did my brother, I once got in a fight in a class room.  lol  I never got in trouble because it was clear that I was defending myself.  Of course that is in Arizona and things are different there.  However I also know that if I did get suspended for defending myself my parents would have a lawer on the phone instantly.

Also what is being mentioned as Self defence by some people isn't self defence at all... A soon to be black belt decking a untrained kid because he got bopped on the head sounds like assult on the part of the black belt to me.

In the mean time if the Bullying is happening through verbal abuse and posting of inapropriat things on the internet parents need to be prepared to bring the law into the situation.  The parents of the bullying child must be notified, and potentially fined.  The school should be made aware, and the child should be punished.  Our reaction to this kind of abuse should be instantanious and severe...

After all the same laws that protect us against slander and libel also protect our children.

Most schools have a zero tolerance for fighting policy.

Just the same, I'm conflicted. I would never have told my kid not to defend themselves, but understood that by doing so physically, they would have been subject to the same punishment.