Taxes... I want your opinions.
Can anyone explain to me why many liberals think the wealthy aren't paying their fair share of taxes? If you can support it with statistics, I'd much appreciate it.
Also...
1) How will increasing Federal Income Tax help? Would you increase it across the board or just for higher income earners?
2) How will increasing taxes paid by large corporations help? Keep in mind, corporation implies that it is owned by the people... taxes on corporations ultimately reduce their profits which in turn reduces value of the peoples' ownership in that company.
3) What should be done with FICA (social security)? Increase? Leave the same? Abolish it?
Original Post by lippygal:
Original Post by kae03:
I know people who are collecting a disability check for there son who has ADHD...he is perfectly functionable and goes to normal classes...I can see maybe state paid counslor, but why should she get 600 a month in cash??????
RUFKM? RITALIN DOESN'T COST THAT MUCH.
I wish I was kidding you...
Original Post by kae03:
Original Post by lippygal:
Original Post by kae03:
I know people who are collecting a disability check for there son who has ADHD...he is perfectly functionable and goes to normal classes...I can see maybe state paid counslor, but why should she get 600 a month in cash??????
RUFKM? RITALIN DOESN'T COST THAT MUCH.
I wish I was kidding you...
Nice system. Nice, very nice...
The colonists expected assistance and support from their government - and when they didn't get it, they created their own that would.
Original Post by kathygator:
Look. I am 46 years old. I have no college degree-great grades, no money and more importantly, no one to tell me I could find a way to do it anyway.
I married young, and worked as an administrative assistant. Raised two fine boys. My husband and I gave them a better life than we had. One in college -one in Law school.
We had a 401k through my husband's work. Because of 'the people's' corporate culture of underpaying women, cutting back on benefits and freezing wages, his was the only retirement plan we had.
He died last year. I work, I pay my bills, I take care of myself and my family - I have very little left over on which to retire. I will be able to rely on my kids to a certain extent, but will not burden them if I can help it.
So when I'm 70 and I serve you your dinner DCY and or Lippy - you better tip like you mean it.
my MIL is in a similar place...she had a stroke 10 years ago and can't work...she get s 600 a month in disability...she babysits on the side...claims the money as she should...she has lived with us all. my SIL is starting to do well financially and have bought a house that they are now renting to her...we all help out. That is how it should be...parents provide for the kids..then they for the parents...
I know this isn't always possible, and I am not against all state help...but it is so abused
Original Post by kae03:
Original Post by kathygator:
Look. I am 46 years old. I have no college degree-great grades, no money and more importantly, no one to tell me I could find a way to do it anyway.
I married young, and worked as an administrative assistant. Raised two fine boys. My husband and I gave them a better life than we had. One in college -one in Law school.
We had a 401k through my husband's work. Because of 'the people's' corporate culture of underpaying women, cutting back on benefits and freezing wages, his was the only retirement plan we had.
He died last year. I work, I pay my bills, I take care of myself and my family - I have very little left over on which to retire. I will be able to rely on my kids to a certain extent, but will not burden them if I can help it.
So when I'm 70 and I serve you your dinner DCY and or Lippy - you better tip like you mean it.my MIL is in a similar place...she had a stroke 10 years ago and can't work...she get s 600 a month in disability...she babysits on the side...claims the money as she should...she has lived with us all. my SIL is starting to do well financially and have bought a house that they are now renting to her...we all help out. That is how it should be...parents provide for the kids..then they for the parents...
I know this isn't always possible, and I am not against all state help...but it is so abused
I can only speak for myself here, but I would NEVER let my mother or father live in any state of poverty, nothing even close. I myself would be before I let them be. I would do whatever it took, I would take them in and do anything and everything for them no matter what my age was or how expensive it was. I would overextend my own credit for it. I would stop at nothing. Those are 2 people I have the uttmost respect for and it would never, ever be a burden. There is no such thing as a burden between family. Not to me.
Original Post by kathygator:
then you answered your own question when you said 'giving very little in return'.
The colonists expected assistance and support from their government - and when they didn't get it, they created their own that would.
Actually the colonists quite feared a large central government. Initial governments were formed to give state gov'ts and local gov'ts the most power. They realized that with a large central gov't, their taxes were being used towards things they didn't want/need/benefit from. To make things worse, they were not allowed any representation.
It seems that now, a large central gov't has become dominant once again with more programs than the average citizen can even keep track of.
It's probably already been pointed out that the wealthiest minority of the country pays the highest percentage of the US's tax revenues.
Many people seem to be under this misconception that wealthy people are greedy and resentful of helping out the less fortunate. Actually, Americans as a whole are incredibly generous when it comes to voluntary donations. We seem to have a strong cultural impulse to help others along with safety nets, second chances, and help for the needy.
But the question is, why are we accepting this presumption that charity is the government's business? Government is the least efficient way to redistribute wealth because it has no incentive to be efficient - it can simply raise taxes and compel more revenues.
What would happen if these government programs (SSI, Medicare, public schools, universal health care, food stamps, disaster relief, etc.) were abolished? First of all, American generosity will fill in the gap. Nobody wants to see other human beings dying in the streets - look at the outpouring of donations after 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina. People want to help. Second, you'd be free to let your donations reflect your values. Maybe you're all for helping underprivileged minority kids get college scholarships, but not so much in favor of providing drug treament for parolees. You get to direct which programs your money supports - which is often one of the biggest complaints people have about their tax burden.
Government is nothing more than a bunch of men with guns that take your money under threat of imprisoning you. It's probably a necessary evil in order to live by the rule of law, but why on earth would we accept that it's ok to give the men with guns more and more control over our money and our values?
Original Post by dcyounts:
Original Post by kathygator:
then you answered your own question when you said 'giving very little in return'.
The colonists expected assistance and support from their government - and when they didn't get it, they created their own that would.Actually the colonists quite feared a large central government. Initial governments were formed to give state gov'ts and local gov'ts the most power. They realized that with a large central gov't, their taxes were being used towards things they didn't want/need/benefit from. To make things worse, they were not allowed any representation.
It seems that now, a large central gov't has become dominant once again with more programs than the average citizen can even keep track of.
I hope you're voting libertarian :) I am.
Government is nothing more than a bunch of men with guns that take your money under threat of imprisoning you. It's probably a necessary evil in order to live by the rule of law, but why on earth would we accept that it's ok to give the men with guns more and more control over our money and our values?
Okay -- you're a citizen, and you are a product of a system that allows you to be rich, and you were born privilaged. Guess what? You have to pay to play.
No one has claimed there are no abuses of the safety net. There are people who receive assistance who have no other income available and would literally be out on the street and would die without the assistance.
My brother is one of them. He has a severe mental disability. He has to be in a group home situation. He can not live in a regular setting. He can not hold a job, he can not cook for himself, he can not take care of himself. He is far too great a burden for me to take care of him by myself. I do not have the money to pay a full time aid to watch him while I'm at work. Both of my parents are deceased. Neither one of them were able to mass enough money to finance his care for the rest of his natural life. He is only 50 years old.
Should he be put down like a dog? Should his benefits be taken away? Should I have to go out begging for charity sponsors so that he can have a safe, clean place to live?
To those of you who think there should be no safety net at all, what would you do with people like my brother?
Original Post by moonikins:
No one has claimed there are no abuses of the safety net. There are people who receive assistance who have no other income available and would literally be out on the street and would die without the assistance.
My brother is one of them. He has a severe mental disability. He has to be in a group home situation. He can not live in a regular setting. He can not hold a job, he can not cook for himself, he can not take care of himself. He is far too great a burden for me to take care of him by myself. I do not have the money to pay a full time aid to watch him while I'm at work. Both of my parents are deceased. Neither one of them were able to mass enough money to finance his care for the rest of his natural life. He is only 50 years old.
Should he be put down like a dog? Should his benefits be taken away? Should I have to go out begging for charity sponsors so that he can have a safe, clean place to live?
To those of you who think there should be no safety net at all, what would you do with people like my brother?
I would be asking for charity if I were you. There is nothing wrong with asking for help. Its not begging, its asking. Have you?
Original Post by moonikins:
No one has claimed there are no abuses of the safety net. There are people who receive assistance who have no other income available and would literally be out on the street and would die without the assistance.
My brother is one of them. He has a severe mental disability. He has to be in a group home situation. He can not live in a regular setting. He can not hold a job, he can not cook for himself, he can not take care of himself. He is far too great a burden for me to take care of him by myself. I do not have the money to pay a full time aid to watch him while I'm at work. Both of my parents are deceased. Neither one of them were able to mass enough money to finance his care for the rest of his natural life. He is only 50 years old.
Should he be put down like a dog? Should his benefits be taken away? Should I have to go out begging for charity sponsors so that he can have a safe, clean place to live?
To those of you who think there should be no safety net at all, what would you do with people like my brother?
no, that is what it SHOULD be for, not someone looking for a free ride with a made up condition and a crook for a Doctor!
But I broke my own rule and brought up personal stuff in a debate. I'm done with this one.
No. Unquestionably, No.
Original Post by kathygator:
112: there is a RCH of a difference between them Lippy.
But I broke my own rule and brought up personal stuff in a debate. I'm done with this one.
what is RCH?
There is no such thing as a burden between family.
You have obviously never taken care of anyone with severe disabilities. You think you know what you would do. You think you know how you would feel. Are you sincere in your belief, yes. But experience is a whole different story.
I have cared for my disable brother. He is my brother. I love him. It became impossible to care for him in the manner in which he needed. It was not a choice our family took likely. It didn't mean we didn't love him, it didn't mean we were abandoning our responsibility.
I also cared for my mother in her last years. I loved her. I wiped her butt. I gave her showers. I worked third shift, often 12 hour shifts, then came home to clean up spills and messes. There were many times I only got a few hours of sleep. I did it anyway. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a burden. It doesn't mean it didn't take a toll on me that left me feeling desperate at times. It was a huge burden and I did the best I could.
I would do it all again.
Original Post by moonikins:
There is no such thing as a burden between family.
You have obviously never taken care of anyone with severe disabilities. You think you know what you would do. You think you know how you would feel. Are you sincere in your belief, yes. But experience is a whole different story.
I have cared for my disable brother. He is my brother. I love him. It became impossible to care for him in the manner in which he needed. It was not a choice our family took likely. It didn't mean we didn't love him, it didn't mean we were abandoning our responsibility.
I also cared for my mother in her last years. I loved her. I wiped her butt. I gave her showers. I worked third shift, often 12 hour shifts, then came home to clean up spills and messes. There were many times I only got a few hours of sleep. I did it anyway. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a burden. It doesn't mean it didn't take a toll on me that left me feeling desperate at times. It was a huge burden and I did the best I could.
I would do it all again.
What a nerve you have making that assumption.
I'm sorry for all of your troubles.
Original Post by lippygal:
Original Post by moonikins:
There is no such thing as a burden between family.
You have obviously never taken care of anyone with severe disabilities. You think you know what you would do. You think you know how you would feel. Are you sincere in your belief, yes. But experience is a whole different story.
I have cared for my disable brother. He is my brother. I love him. It became impossible to care for him in the manner in which he needed. It was not a choice our family took likely. It didn't mean we didn't love him, it didn't mean we were abandoning our responsibility.
I also cared for my mother in her last years. I loved her. I wiped her butt. I gave her showers. I worked third shift, often 12 hour shifts, then came home to clean up spills and messes. There were many times I only got a few hours of sleep. I did it anyway. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a burden. It doesn't mean it didn't take a toll on me that left me feeling desperate at times. It was a huge burden and I did the best I could.
I would do it all again.
What a nerve you have making that assumption.
I'm sorry for all of your troubles.
What assumption did I make? You spoke as someone who has never experienced taking care of someone incapable of caring for themselves. You declared it wasn't a burden. You have made more than one flippant remark about how everyone should just fend for themselves.
And I don't believe for one second you have any empathy for me or anyone who has experienced any kind of pain. I am not sorry for my troubles. They have helped me grow and have given me a deeper understanding and more compassion for others.
Edit to add: I sincerely hope that if you are in need that someone will help you or give you the assistance you need.
Original Post by moonikins:
Original Post by lippygal:
Original Post by moonikins:
There is no such thing as a burden between family.
You have obviously never taken care of anyone with severe disabilities. You think you know what you would do. You think you know how you would feel. Are you sincere in your belief, yes. But experience is a whole different story.
I have cared for my disable brother. He is my brother. I love him. It became impossible to care for him in the manner in which he needed. It was not a choice our family took likely. It didn't mean we didn't love him, it didn't mean we were abandoning our responsibility.
I also cared for my mother in her last years. I loved her. I wiped her butt. I gave her showers. I worked third shift, often 12 hour shifts, then came home to clean up spills and messes. There were many times I only got a few hours of sleep. I did it anyway. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a burden. It doesn't mean it didn't take a toll on me that left me feeling desperate at times. It was a huge burden and I did the best I could.
I would do it all again.
What a nerve you have making that assumption.
I'm sorry for all of your troubles.
What assumption did I make? You spoke as someone who has never experienced taking care of someone incapable of caring for themselves. You declared it wasn't a burden. You have made more than one flippant remark about how everyone should just fend for themselves.
And I don't believe for one second you have any empathy for me or anyone who has experienced any kind of pain. I am not sorry for my troubles. They have helped me grow and have given me a deeper understanding and more compassion for others.
Again, what a nerve. I guess this all has made you bitter. No need to defend yourself to me.
