These things are NOT part of your weight lifting routine (also known as strength training)

Just saw another thread about balanced routines and I started thinking about this. As you probably don't know, I'm too lazy to Google for you. I'm a big fan of weight lifting forums, books and actually lifting weights. There is A LOT of misinformation out there so don't take my word for it, although it would be cool if you did.

As they say, the best exercise is the one you're doing. Many things are better than doing nothing. Using an iron lung is better than not breathing. Then there's the next step: there are things that awesome uses of your gym time.

This thread is assuming you know how important a weight routine is to your overall health, especially if you're a woman. If you're a woman over 30 and not doing weights three times a week, GET OFF THE COMPUTER AND GO START THAT RIGHT NOW.

Note: If you are getting your info from any of the following, please start the research process over: Cosmo, Shape, Self

 

1. Pilates and yoga: not weight lifting.

2. Weight lifting classes: this is tricky because they lift weights in there. They lift light weights for countless reps. This is NOT an effective weight routine. Is it an easy class? No. Is it the best use of your time and energy? Hell no. Put that sort of effort into a weight routine not set to music and you'll shock yourself at the progress

3. Running. I can't believe I have to say this. Do you build muscle when you run? I dunno perhaps. Is it a substitute for a weight routine because you feel your legs are getting more muscular? NOPE.

4. Machines: this falls in the category of better than nothing. There are rants about free weights vs machines all over the place. If you're going to be at the gym anyway, do what works best and that's free weights.

spirochete, I hate you. With that said, I don't have access to a gym. I can't follow your sucky advice!

There are many posters here that have great advice about home gym alternatives. There are many heavy, weighted things you have, you can make or you can buy. I saw one poster talk about doing curls with soup cans. Do NOT do that. I think that had to be a joke post but you never know

If you post about toning and not bulking up, I'll probably show up at your door and you're not gonna like that.

Original Post by killerqueen215:

Hey, running builds leg muscle...it just destroys your bones in the process (or maybe that's just me being bitter about shin splints).

What weight should a beginner use to squat? Just the bar, since it's like 45 lbs? I'm in good shape but I've never squatted and I don't want to collapse pitifully in the gym.

Obviously you build muscles to run if you're a beginning runner. It also is very good at eating up muscles as well. I, too am bitter about shin splints. I used to run for an hour a day and weighed very little. Pictures of me from that time period are downright horrifying. I think I had like one muscle fiber left.

If you can squat the bar, that is awesome! It's hard for a lot of women to get used to squatting the bar in the first place. I would definitely try the bar, or does your gym have pre-weighted bars that are like 10, 20, 30lbs, etc? Maybe do a trial run with one of those. Personally I'm confident you can squat the bar if you're in half decent shape!

If you can tell me how I can replace 180lb deadlifts and 130lb squats with yoga, I'm all ears. Can I do a handstand push up? No. Is there some strength I can gain with yoga? Sure. I'm not sure why you're so upset about this.

10 pushups requires more strength than 1 pushup.  Doing a headstand with your feet straight up requires more strength than with your feet against the wall.  Lifting more than your weight, using some iron, requires more strength than just lifting your weight, if you can do it. 

I'm not upset, I'm just a little annoyed by the alternative laws of physics.

Happy ranting.

 

 

 

Original Post by alevin:

10 pushups requires more strength than 1 pushup. Doing a headstand with your feet straight up requires more strength than with your feet against the wall. Lifting more than your weight, using some iron, requires more strength than just lifting your weight, if you can do it.

I'm not upset, I'm just a little annoyed by the alternative laws of physics.

Happy ranting.

 

 

 

You never answered my question about deadlifts and squats, and I don't know what this post is even supposed to be about.

Happy ignorance.

Original Post by swimgirl110:

I disagree, I think machines are much better for weight purposes. I had to "bulk up" for swim season bc I
m not very muscular (more cardio) and I know lifting is especially important for bone mass and preventing osteoperosis. Machines get the job done, and much, much quicker False, recently a study was conducted between fixed motion machines and free motion exercises and the free motion (free weight) group gained TWICE as much strength as the machine users. The machine people also had huge increases in joint pain. Free weights are harder to work on the legs/abs/back Really? Squats, deadlifts, and lunges are probably the best exercises in existance for legs/abs and there are plenty of back exercises you can do with free-weights. Generally I only do free weights on my triceps, biceps, pecs The fact that you're not a competitive bodybuilder and your doing exercises specifically for your biceps and triceps shows your lack of weight lifting knowledge.

Furthermore, you do actually do some weights in pilates...yoga you have to hold yourself up in strange postitions for a long amount of time There is a big difference between holding something still and moving a heavy weight, which does build limited muscle. Running IS good for building leg muscle in the calves, quads, etc. Right, that guy who won the Boston Marathon had HUGE legs, body builders should really take note and you can't do that easily with free weights Again, wrong, see squats, deadlifts, lunges.

Free weights really don't work well, trust me I'd rather trust professionals, the vast majority of whom totally disagree with you. I have several National level athletes on my team, and while we all do free weights, we rely heavily on the machines.

Here's a link to the study that shows have superior free-motion exercises are to fixed motion exercises (machines)

http://w2.ideafit.com/fit-tips/february-2008/ strength-gains-fixed-vs-freeform-equipment 

As far as I can tell, there isn't a yoga pose that does what a deadlift is. I've done squat variants in yoga classes, but those haven't been hard from a strength perspective.

So no, yoga does not include these core exercises, and won't replace them.

The classes I go to do a lot of lunge-like poses, with extra balancing required why you hold a lunge. And I feel it the next day in my quads.

The general principle, from what I read from strength training fans, are that strength exercises that are compound movements, and require core strength and balance, are better than isolation exercises. Yoga has lots of these.

 

If you are dead set against including bodyweight exercises as part of your routine, even when they are strength-building for you, that is a fine personal preference.

Edited to include: the title of this thread is: These things are NOT part of your weight lifting routine (also known as strength training)

So, saying weight-bearing yoga poses aren't part of strength training is just as silly as saying that pushups, pullups and dips aren't part of strength training.

 Bodyweight-based strength training is an excellent tool for the beginner; I mean, I started out with basically bodyweight-style training myself since I was so pitifully out of shape that just walking any appreciable distance was a challenge that gave me DOMS.

 You can do lots with leverages and bodyweight-based strength training (Craig Ballantyne, Mat Furey, Ross Enamait and other calisthenics guys, Rodney Yee though he built that body doing gymnastics and weight training, not yoga) and you can have appreciable results in a whole host of fitness dimensions that aren't maximal strength training.

 Ultimately however, your results are limited by the one unavoidable factor - as your fitness increases and you need to use more resistance to challenge your body... your bodyweight decreases and you start challenging your body less.

 However, fitness isn't one-dimensional. The question you've gotta ask is "fit for what?"

 A competitve olympic marathoner would be deeply unhappy with the results from strength training -more muscles means his running time worsens. On the other hand an 86-year old grandma who can carry home the the 50lbs bag of kitty litter without struggling after training with weights is probably very happy.

 Strength training using resistance is the fastest way to lose fat, gain bone strength, and the only way to retain lean mass while dieting, so for us calorie-counters still trying to lose fat it's crucial. Doesn't mean it's the only fitness dimension worth worrying about, if we go that route we're as misguided as Kenneth Cooper and Frank Shorter and the rest of the aerobics-only crowd.

 Far healthier and likely to live lots longer, but still, elevating a signle fitness dimension to supremacy without regard for individual needs and goals is the exact same mistake the cardio bunnies at Shape are making.

 Btw: Machines vs. free weights? No contest:

Following initial assessments, 30 sedentary male and female subjects were randomly divided among a nonexercise control group (C), a freeform group (FF) and a fixed-form (FX) group.
The FF group showed twice as much strength improvement as the FX group (115% vs. 57%, respectively). Study authors also found a 111% increase in joint pain among the FX group, whereas joint pain decreased by 30% in the FF group, with no new symptoms occurring upon study completion. Balance improved in both groups; however, the FF group had a 245% increase in balance capabilities compared with a less significant 49% increase among the FX group

Strength Gains: Fixed vs. Freeform Equipment
(Original study: Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 22(1):75-81, January 2008.

 Machines have their place in rehab contexts and other special circumstances, but for people who aren't in need of rehab they just mean more pain and less gain.

I'm not disagreeing with your post generally, but I just have one pet peeve that has been driving me crazy.  If you do pilates with the reformer and other equipment like the stability chair, it is strength training.  It involves resistance training using pulleys attached to a number of springs that can be added to increase the resistance.  The most common pilates that people do is mat pilates, which is not the same thing.  That does not use resistance beyond gravity and your own body.  But for those people that do Pilates reformer practice, it most certainly is strength training.   I do this 2-3 times a week and it has been amazing to see how much my strength has increased. 

http://pilates.about.com/od/gettingstarted/ss /ReformerAnatomy.htm

http://www.pilates.com/BBAPP/V/equipment/chai rs.html

 Yes, it's kinda sorta strength training, using modified gymnastics gear - and you can do lots with leverages and bodyweight.

 Ultimately however, Pilates is nothing special - like yoga it has uses, but it doesn't live up to the claims in the marketing hype.

 But hey, as I keep saying - ultimately, it's consistency that determines your results, not the efficiency of any one workout. And fun causes you to be consistent - so as long as you're enjoying yourself and are happy with your results, does it matter to you that you could have had even better results using a more efficient mode of training?

Original Post by spirochete:

Original Post by killerqueen215:

Hey, running builds leg muscle...it just destroys your bones in the process (or maybe that's just me being bitter about shin splints).

What weight should a beginner use to squat? Just the bar, since it's like 45 lbs? I'm in good shape but I've never squatted and I don't want to collapse pitifully in the gym.

Obviously you build muscles to run if you're a beginning runner. It also is very good at eating up muscles as well. I, too am bitter about shin splints. I used to run for an hour a day and weighed very little. Pictures of me from that time period are downright horrifying. I think I had like one muscle fiber left.

If you can squat the bar, that is awesome! It's hard for a lot of women to get used to squatting the bar in the first place. I would definitely try the bar, or does your gym have pre-weighted bars that are like 10, 20, 30lbs, etc? Maybe do a trial run with one of those. Personally I'm confident you can squat the bar if you're in half decent shape!

Wow.  I have to disagree here.  When you are first starting out with squats (or anything!) you start at the lowest and work up.  For example, with squats first do 3 sets of 12-15 with your body weight.  If that seems easy you can either use a bar behind your shoulders or equal amount freeweights in each hand.  Start out with the lowest weights and work your way up.  Starting with a 45 pound bar is not only stupid it's dangerous.  If you can't handle the weight and don't have a spotter you could hurt yourself.  Or if your someone like me who has bad knees you are setting yourself up for disaster.

Spiro- You def. have some good ideas and concepts.  The freeweights are key (although I love the cables as well). And I totally understand it annoys you that people ask about toning vs. bulking up.  But the weights that you mentioned using for yourself and the weights that you recommended for someone just starting with squats really seem like they are more for someone who does want to become some kind of "body builder" or trainer, than your average person who goes to the gym a few times a week.

If you are looking for weight loss and weight training, I'd highly recommend doing circuits (about 3 or so exercises in a row with very small breaks in between) with at least one non, or low weight exercise to get your heart rate up (like step-ups).

Original Post by melkor:

 Yes, it's kinda sorta strength training, using modified gymnastics gear - and you can do lots with leverages and bodyweight.

 Ultimately however, Pilates is nothing special - like yoga it has uses, but it doesn't live up to the claims in the marketing hype.

 But hey, as I keep saying - ultimately, it's consistency that determines your results, not the efficiency of any one workout. And fun causes you to be consistent - so as long as you're enjoying yourself and are happy with your results, does it matter to you that you could have had even better results using a more efficient mode of training?

Another inaccuracy I need to comment on.  My mother is a Pilates instructor.  A REAL pilates instructor.  I guess that many people do not realize that Pilates the name and the exercise had lost it's trademark about 8-10 years ago.  That means that now someone can take a weekend class and call themselves a certified Pilates instructor.  Which in my opinion is total bull...  There used to be a very limited amount of studios (less than 10 in the world, probobly closer to 5) that were able to certify instructors up until the trademark was lost.

To become a real Pilates instructor takes 3 tests and 600+ hours of work in a very strict environment.  The people who teach the program are those that learned with Joseph Pilates himself.  

If you are interested at all in finding about real Pilates (not diluted often unsafe and uneffective other forms) I'd highly reccomend you to check out these sites: http://www.classicalpilates.net/directory.php

http://www.romanaspilates.com/

It lists all of the instructors who are certified and what generation they are, as well as information about Pilates. 

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, its just a shame that so many people who take Pilates classes at their local gym are experiencing nothing like what it is meant to be.  And go on to say things like the above.

Edit:  I also found this from the second website:

In recent years the word Pilates worked itself into the mainstream, the direct result of an intellectual property lawsuit in which a US federal court ruled the term "Pilates" generic and free for unrestricted use. Search engine results are now in the millions as numerous organizations have entered the market to capitalize on the latest fitness trend and individuals across the globe look to benefit from Joe’s unique approach to health and fitness. As a result, consumers now face extensive and conflicting information about what Pilates is, how it works and what credentials they should seek in an instructor.

 

Another reason why I will be going to law school...

Take it up with Mel Siff who wrote Pilates Revealed - Joseph Pilates had an interesting background, but his workouts are nothing special in the strength and conditioning field, and there's a reason why physical theraphists aren't taught much of anyting Joseph Pilates did anymore.

 It's a decent workout system, it has interesting components, but in the end it's more hype than substance and if I hear "creates long, lean muscles" out of one more Pilates instructor there will be trouble :-P

Original Post by xzcandizx:

 But the weights that you mentioned using for yourself and the weights that you recommended for someone just starting with squats really seem like they are more for someone who does want to become some kind of "body builder" or trainer, than your average person who goes to the gym a few times a week.

 

I'm totally confused. I'm not a body builder, I'm your average 39 year old mom who goes to the gym a few times a week. I just want to make the best use of my time possible since I don't have a lot. What I do makes the very best use of my limited gym time.

When I started squats I used the bar.   I had done the body pump class previously too, and ditched it for the real thing.   If she can do body pump with 50lbs then she can certainly squat the bar. 

I like this thread.   It's funny to watch people defend what they have been doing, just because it is the only thing they know.   I only use 2 "machines",  the cables for rows and lat pull-downs and what I call the devil (otherwise known as the smith machine).   Don't panic Spiro, I only use it for calf raises because I can't balance myself on my tippy toes with 100lbs on the bar lol

"Also, the laws of physics somehow enable your body to detect if it is lifting a heavy human and lifting a heavy piece of iron. "

Also, how in the heck would physics explain how your body handles its own weight and how it handles the ADDITIONAL weight of the iron.   Would that mean that my body would know the difference if I deadlifted 140 lbs of iron or if I deadlifted my cousin.   How your body handles its own mass it mostly pyschological.   I took a couple physics courses in college and I am pretty sure this never came up.

agana this has been my fight since I started posting on these forums. It's hard to pry peoples' long held notions away from them. Most people didn't know what Pilates was 20 years ago and now it's freakin everywhere. I blame these stupid magazines that tell us stars are doing whatever their sponsor of the week is, or they make something up.

I don't know if any of you are fans of Margaret Cho. She had a comedy special some years ago. Margaret was talking about how she starved herself almost to death so she could be thin for TV. She was pissing blood and got very sick. She found it very amusing that People or whatever wrote this entire article about how she was doing a "traditional Asian diet" of fish and rice to keep slim. It was the first she heard of it!

Bah!!!  I still have to mentally smack myself sometimes at the thoughts I have like , "Gee, I bet that hydroxycut isn't alllll bad, right?" or "maybe I could just drink my muscle milk for a few days instead of eating normal food to get some pounds off fast"    I know better but the thoughts still sneak in.  At least I never looked back once I did my first deadlift.   It was love at first grunt!!!     

Original Post by melkor:

Take it up with Mel Siff who wrote Pilates Revealed - Joseph Pilates had an interesting background, but his workouts are nothing special in the strength and conditioning field, and there's a reason why physical theraphists aren't taught much of anyting Joseph Pilates did anymore.

 It's a decent workout system, it has interesting components, but in the end it's more hype than substance and if I hear "creates long, lean muscles" out of one more Pilates instructor there will be trouble :-P

Did you actually read this guys credentials?  Totally off topic.  They are not meant to be worked with physical therapists.  They are meant to be taught by certified, qualified Pilates instructors.  What you are saying is plain opinion.  And that is fine, but please do not try to pass off what you are saying as any inkling of knowledge of what it really is about.  Hype happens for a reason.  And because of the hype there are so many imitations, which seems that is likely to be what you experienced.  And no, mat classes don't count as the real thing.

Original Post by spirochete:

Original Post by xzcandizx:

 But the weights that you mentioned using for yourself and the weights that you recommended for someone just starting with squats really seem like they are more for someone who does want to become some kind of "body builder" or trainer, than your average person who goes to the gym a few times a week.

 

I'm totally confused. I'm not a body builder, I'm your average 39 year old mom who goes to the gym a few times a week. I just want to make the best use of my time possible since I don't have a lot. What I do makes the very best use of my limited gym time.

Then maybe you shouldn't be doling out that information?  The kind of info that you were giving- you have pretty much no idea of the persons background.  And it is always better to be safe than end up with some type of injury.

I also could question your routine.  That certainly seems like an unnecessary amount of weight for a 39 year old woman to be using if they don't want to "bulk up".  I would have to take a reasonable guess that your routine is no where near what most people on this board need/are looking for.

I have trained with a trainer over the past several years.  I will tell you honestly I'm not in the best shape of my life right now, but even when I was, my trainers would never even give me close to half the amount of the weight you use for yourself.  I could go on, it just seems like two different philosophies.  I absolutely agree with you about staying away from the machines, and that using weights doesn't automatically make you bulk up.  But lets face it, if you are looking to loose weight, cardio is always first and weights come second.  I know that you might disagree with this, but pretty much every reliable fitness source would agree.

Original Post by xzcandizx:

Original Post by spirochete:

Original Post by xzcandizx:

 But the weights that you mentioned using for yourself and the weights that you recommended for someone just starting with squats really seem like they are more for someone who does want to become some kind of "body builder" or trainer, than your average person who goes to the gym a few times a week.

 

I'm totally confused. I'm not a body builder, I'm your average 39 year old mom who goes to the gym a few times a week. I just want to make the best use of my time possible since I don't have a lot. What I do makes the very best use of my limited gym time.

Then maybe you shouldn't be doling out that information?  The kind of info that you were giving- you have pretty much no idea of the persons background.  And it is always better to be safe than end up with some type of injury.

I also could question your routine.  That certainly seems like an unnecessary amount of weight for a 39 year old woman to be using if they don't want to "bulk up".  I would have to take a reasonable guess that your routine is no where near what most people on this board need/are looking for.

I have trained with a trainer over the past several years.  I will tell you honestly I'm not in the best shape of my life right now, but even when I was, my trainers would never even give me close to half the amount of the weight you use for yourself.  I could go on, it just seems like two different philosophies.  I absolutely agree with you about staying away from the machines, and that using weights doesn't automatically make you bulk up.  But lets face it, if you are looking to loose weight, cardio is always first and weights come second.  I know that you might disagree with this, but pretty much every reliable fitness source would agree.

 So that is a fact that every reliable fitness source would agree?  I hate to tell you but is just the opposite, weight training is what burns the most calories period.  Not only do you burn calories during your work out, you burn them up to 30+ hours after and by adding muscle you burn calories just to keep that muscle.  Read this article :  http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=152 6539.  Read the article and the studies attached.  The real winner is Diet, Weights and Cardio in that order.

Original Post by xzcandizx:

 But lets face it, if you are looking to loose weight, cardio is always first and weights come second. I know that you might disagree with this, but pretty much every reliable fitness source would agree.

Haha ok I'm done with you. What's your reliable fitness source? Shape? Cosmo?

Basic compound movements, done with strict form, is so money.  If I had to chose between doing nothing but the eliptical or nothing but squats, to get in shape, give me the squats every time!