On the topic of 'Honey' --

I identify as vegan because I don't eat meat of any kind and can't bring myself to eat eggs because of the factory treatment of laying hens before they're tossed in the chipper for being too old to produce, or milk because it's full of blood and puss caused by machine-milking cow-teets until they crack, split and swell. The very idea of ingesting either of these products makes me quite sick to my stomach. I buy all organic vegan beauty products and try to shop as ethically as possible for everything else I own (ie clothing, furniture, paper products).

The thing is, I can't bring myself to understand why honey is bad and shouldn't be consumed. I grew up feeling honey was one of the very best natural home remedies for illnesses like sore throats and colds. It's an incredible antiseptic and it's not a harsh chemical with dozens of side effects. Even before I became health conscious I used it as sweetener instead of sugar because it seemed better than refined sugar. Bees aren't killed or tortured to produce honey, their hives are provided for them and insulated by the farmers in winter to protect them. The farmers only take the 'surplus' honey and always leave the bees with what they'll need themselves to survive.

So, what's so wrong? I'm perfectly open to either opinion and am very interested to hear any and all responses on the subject. Crazy term purists who aim to lambast me for "going against the dictionary definition of 'vegan'" by using honey products will be ignored. People really get in a tizzy here about labels and I've gotten a bit weary of it. Let's play nice this time around! Friendly discussion.

Alright, go! ;)

Hello!

We are in total agreement on this subject. I am also a honey-eating vegan. When I went vegan, honey didn't even occur to me as counting as an animal product, but then I read it in a list of non-vegan foods. And I too always considered it to have healthful/healing qualities. So I thought long and hard about it and made the personal choice not to take honey out of my diet. 

I really wanted to know the reasons other vegans did not eat honey though, so I looked around on the internet. From what I gather, some feel as though it is considered stealing from the bees, and the honey industry exploits them for our personal use. While I can see their point, I do not feel strongly enough about the bee industry to be upset. Bees are not treated cruelly, at least I don't think so. That depends on one's opinion of cruel however, I suppose. The do use smoke to facilitate production, but it does not harm them as far as I know. I suppose they are being held captive for human use, which is unnatural and could be seen as cruel, but the bees would be making honey anyway, right?

I don't know, even as I write about it now I can see their point, but I admit that I still do not feel strongly enough to eliminate honey completely from my diet. 

It's a personal choice, in the end, and I believe that eating honey does not make one any less of a good vegan. Veganism should be a personal journey for everyone - different in small ways, but with a common interest at heart.

Good luck with your journey! 

Original Post by folkharpist:

I suppose they are being held captive for human use, which is unnatural and could be seen as cruel, but the bees would be making honey anyway, right?

That doesn't make sense, it's like saying "The chickens would be laying eggs anyway."

This is why I can't get my head around the concept of veganism.  There are just too many variables.

I agree with that flonklar, it is all very subjective. My arguments about honey aren't the best to extract anything from, because as you can see, my opinions are not very strong on the subject. Meat/dairy/eggs I'm set on, but with honey I could go one way or the other. 

Those two examples differ greatly to me however, in that the eggs of chickens contain living creatures who could have otherwise had lives, where as honey is just a sugary byproduct. (Just how I feel, not preaching at all.) Hence, the egg industry bothers me, the honey one does not. And until I find evidence that proves otherwise, egg-laying chickens are treated much more badly than honey-making farmed bees. But who knows?! I have not done enough research on it.

But I'm sure I could concede to the argument that honey is the property of the bees, and exploitation of their existence is a certain factor in honey's production.

Again, it's all very personal, as it should be. I eat what I feel comfortable eating, for me and no one else.

I see what you guys are saying, and I do believe it is a personal choice.

I do admit there are times where ive consumed non-vegan food.  Just one example... when I started a new job, we were provided with lunches and all the sandwhiches were meat-based.  I picked off the meat & cheese on mine and ate the lettuse, tomato, and bread... but since a lot of breads do contain eggs, honey, or dairy, there is a good chance I was breaking vegan rules, but it was either eat that or starve.

I do my best to avoid honey (& all other animal byprodcuts of course), but I do not think people who do consume honey are 'bad' vegans.

Well, as far as I understand (I'm not vegan, been vegetarian for 15 years, but I started eating meat again), the whole point of veganism is not using animals for our own good. And while the bees don't die, they are not free. Plus, the keepers are influencing production, which is not natural and bees are not given  a choice.

Now, I won't tell you that the bees suffer, because I really don't know. The only thing I can say is that I wouldn't worry so much about labels and eat what you want. It's a personal choice and you don't owe anybody any kind of an explaination.

Maybe I'm completely misinformed, but can't bees just you know, fly away if they don't like where they are? Unlike other livestock who are dependant on humans for their survival. This is assuming that the hive is located out of doors, of course.

why can't you eat free range chicken eggs?

The whole idea of veganism to prevent cruelty seems idyllic and unattainable to me as long as we are buying non-food items made by humans, living and working in conditions we wouldn't want our chicken dinner to live in.

I'm not a vegan, but I do keep bees, so maybe I can have a say in the discussion.  It is very important to keep the bees in the hive "happy" and healthy, because, as one poster mentioned, there is nothing to stop them from leaving if they don't like their environment. 

Every vegan benefits from the hard work of bees, whether they eat honey or not.  Bees are responsible for the pollination of a vast majority of the world's grain and vegetable crops.  Without bees there would be very little to eat!  We beekeepers help them do their jobs, and in return we take a little of their winter stores.

I think it is difficult to argue against eating honey.  Look at it as a symbiotic arrangement.

sunflower, it's great to see someone on here who actually keeps bees. I think it's very interesting for a lot of people to read how bees are kept and if they are happy. Can you explain a bit about the smoke that is blown into the hive and what it does to them? This seems to be a point of concern.

i'm vegan and i eat honey. most other vegans i know eat it as well.

some people don't even eat yeast because it's an active culture and can reproduce. i sort of find purists ridiculous.

Original Post by omonica:

some people don't even eat yeast because it's an active culture and can reproduce. i sort of find purists ridiculous.

 That's wonderful to hear from a vegan.  Thanks! 

Original Post by folkharpist:

Those two examples differ greatly to me however, in that the eggs of chickens contain living creatures who could have otherwise had lives, where as honey is just a sugary byproduct. (Just how I feel, not preaching at all.) Hence, the egg industry bothers me, the honey one does not. And until I find evidence that proves otherwise, egg-laying chickens are treated much more badly than honey-making farmed bees. But who knows?! I have not done enough research on it.

Actually, chicken eggs don't contain living creatures - they would have to be fertilized for that to happen.  They are treated rather poorly, though. 

Sorry, but discussions about the poor enslaved bees producing honey for the exploitative humans makes me picture little chain gangs of thousands of morose little insects trudging off to the fields to drink nectar and trudging back to the hive to manufacture honey in dangerous industrial conditions, with no rest, no lunch breaks, no hope of a better life ...

Maybe the bees should unionize. 

I have no problem with honey production whatsoever, for a lot of reasons.  I agree that it is symbiotic, not exploitative.  Humans provide bees with a safe living environment and their basic needs; the bees do what they naturally do, which is fly around drinking nectar and making honey; and the humans benefit from the bees' natural activities.  As another poster pointed out, domesticated honeybees are critical to pollenating almost all of the open-pollenated crops in the U.S., because our wild honeybees are approaching extinction.

As for the smoke, it has two purposes:  (1) it masks the pheromones that bees release when they are under stress, and thereby discourages stinging and swarming; and (2) it stimulates a feeding response in the bees so that, instead of flying around and getting stressed out about activity around the hive, they hunker down and eat some honey.  It is completely harmless to the bees and is critical for safe handling - the bees' safety as much as the beekeepers'.

Great. :) So the honey stays! Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful input. So far this has been a very productive discussion! :D

This is a good overview of the "honey debate": http://www.slate.com/id/2196205/

Original Post by vesnaneresna:

Well, as far as I understand (I'm not vegan, been vegetarian for 15 years, but I started eating meat again), the whole point of veganism is not using animals for our own good. And while the bees don't die, they are not free. Plus, the keepers are influencing production, which is not natural and bees are not given  a choice.

 I think the 'point' of veganism is also one that can vary person to person. Some vegans chose the lifestyle for health reasons, many for ethical reasons, but even these can vary.

A vegan who is against the mistreatment and killing of animals may eat honey and free range, unfertilized, eggs. They break the 'technical' definition, perhaps, but not the ethical one.

People who believe any keeping animals or using animal products is unethical would probably avoid honey.

I believe  I read from Burt's Bees that beekeepers kill the queen bee every so often to increase production. I don't know anything about that- that's just what I read. I didn't have a problem with honey until I read that. Now I mostly just buy agave nectar, but I will buy honey from local farms sometimes. Either way, I'd still prefer it not be from a large mass-produced company.

Original Post by kdawg81:

I believe  I read from Burt's Bees that beekeepers kill the queen bee every so often to increase production. I don't know anything about that- that's just what I read. I didn't have a problem with honey until I read that. Now I mostly just buy agave nectar, but I will buy honey from local farms sometimes. Either way, I'd still prefer it not be from a large mass-produced company.

Oh my god, are you serious? I'm going to have to look into this a bit more, because if you're right that might be enough to have me permanently switch to maple syrup. Man, I love honey. :/

Really, though, I've never heard of this before! Weird.

I remember it because they said that their bees are raised humanely in that they DON'T kill the queen, but other honey producers do. I'm going to go try to find where I read that as soon as I'm done postinjg this. I think you are probably safe if you buy locally though because I'd be willing to bet it's only the mass producers of honey that would do that. I only buy mine from the farmer's market, and I've only bought like one container in the past year because agave nectar is just as good and is supposed to be much better for you anyway.