U.S.A. & issue of Secession

I know that our forebears fought a war about whether or not states could secede and in that instance the people who said No, you can not secede won the argument.

But, do you agree with that?

Did you know that a Zogby poll found that 22% of Americans believe that states ought to have the right to 'peacably secede from the u.s. to form an independent republic'? (Haven't we sent troops to other parts of the world to enable people to do this - former yugoslavia, balkin peninsula, etc.)

That's a minority of people,  but it's a lot higher % than people might expect.

I just went to look up how many secessionist movements are afoot in the U.S.  I was only aware of the Hawaiin Sovereignty movement and the Alaskan Independence Party, so I was suprised to see how often people have tried to secede all over the country. (wiki source - there are a lot of books on the topic apparently)

During the last presidential election and during this one, I have begun to think that we'd ALL be better off if we split into two (or more) countries.  It seems that we are so divided about how this country should be governed, the humane thing for all of us would be to let the blue team try it their way in their areas while the red team tries it their way in their areas and then everyone would be more satisfied about how their tax money was being spent, what their government was doing in their name, etc.

Am I completely wrong in thinking this?  I'm not ready to join up with a secessionist group exactly.  But if a reasonable plan were proposed, I would definitely explore it.

What do you think?  If you're a red stater, wouldn't you be relieved to rid your government of the blue states?  If you're a blue stater, wouldn't you be relieved to be rid of the red states?  (Incidentally, I trend blue and I live in a purple state, so no idea how it would shake out for me.  I might have to move to the ideological country of my choice.)

Do you have any idea hw many people would have to move?

less than half?

Key West did this - the Conch Republic.  I lived there for a time and I understand why.

It's an interesting concept, for sure, but I think it would be very, very hard to pull off and yet truly end up with two separate countries. 

Breaking it down to first thigns first:  How do you divide it then?  North/South?  East/West?  Would be interesting just to come up with that part of it, to say the least!

I would say that you let the people in each state vote on whether they want to secede.

Then, if some states secede, they would be able to form a new union with other states if they wanted to, let the people vote on that too.  They'd have a new constitutional convention (at the state level and then also at a federal level if they decided to join up with another state).  And they could make it just the way they want it.   Stronger protections for the Bill of Rights?  Stronger provisions to prevent abuse of power? Outlaw abortion?

Let the people decide.

I actually sort of agree with this, in theory.

But ... though I live in a very blue state, I'm in the middle of the country.  Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, ya know? 

Original Post by nomoreexcuses:

less than half?

 Maybe 45%?

You know, I read that Vermont has a small but increasing percentage of folks who want the state to secede and become its own little country.  But then Vermont always has been a bit nutty.

I think secession has been covered before.  It's a no deal... unless it's San Francisco.  I would be completely fine with that.

The problem is that large sections of the economy reside in blue states.  So, if the red states no longer got the tax benefits from everywhere else, they would be running their red country on a lot less money.

California subsidises a lot of other states.  There's no way they'd let us go, thought I would love it if they would.

Here's a plot for a movie.  Roll back to the Civil War.  The Confederate States are successful in seceding from the Union and from a new country.  Western expansion is a battle between the two countries for new territory until all the lines are drawn.  Forward to current day.  How islife different?

Original Post by kaffwynn:

The problem is that large sections of the economy reside in blue states.  So, if the red states no longer got the tax benefits from everywhere else, they would be running their red country on a lot less money.

Serves them right for being red!

*insert evil laugh here* 

Nah. No need to sucede. We're simply going through growing pains right now. We are always very divided when something new happens. This is how new political parties emerge. We're are kind of lucky to be here in this moment in history, IMO.

In 8 years, we'll even be ready to consider...a woman for president....*gasp*

Original Post by trhawley:

Here's a plot for a movie.  Roll back to the Civil War.  The Confederate States are successful in seceding from the Union and from a new country.  Western expansion is a battle between the two countries for new territory until all the lines are drawn.  Forward to current day.  How islife different?

 It's been done.  It's called CSA - The Confederate States of America.

Do 'swing states' get to switch back and forth between the two countries every few years?

It would be interesting to see happen. I imagine the bible belt seceeding first. I think they might be surprised how much they miss the liberals once they became a theocracy.

In reality it would never happen. Too much money and power to be lost on a national level.

Original Post by trhawley:

Here's a plot for a movie.  Roll back to the Civil War.  The Confederate States are successful in seceding from the Union and from a new country.  Western expansion is a battle between the two countries for new territory until all the lines are drawn.  Forward to current day.  How islife different?

 CSA: The Confederate States of America

Vermont, Montana, Texas, Long Island, Staten Island, Key West.... there are hundreds of places where people have tried to secede from a larger governmental body.

Constitutional scholars don't agree on whether or not secession is possible under our governing document.  The Constitution is silent on whether or not states can secede.  Abraham Lincoln himself stated in his first inaugural address that under circumstances where rights are being oppressed, it might even be essential and necessary, in fact the only moral choice, to secede.

You could make a case for pro-lifers that it would be a moral necessity for them to secede so they could control their government to prevent abortion which they believe is murder.  And you could make a case for anti-war activists that it's a moral necessity for them to secede so they could control their government's involvement in war, which they believe is murder.

kaffwynn, so you think alabama would vote to stick with california? interesting.

Original Post by kathygator:

Original Post by trhawley:

Here's a plot for a movie.  Roll back to the Civil War.  The Confederate States are successful in seceding from the Union and from a new country.  Western expansion is a battle between the two countries for new territory until all the lines are drawn.  Forward to current day.  How islife different?

 CSA: The Confederate States of America

 See post #12.    That was a pretty good movie, actually.

I think the people of Alabama would happily toss California to the ocean.  i don't really see them thinking about the financial implications until it is too late for them.

However, I think the politicians have enough foresight to want to prevent this.  After all, it is their salary at stake too.

Original Post by yachtracer1977:

Original Post by kathygator:

Original Post by trhawley:

Here's a plot for a movie.  Roll back to the Civil War.  The Confederate States are successful in seceding from the Union and from a new country.  Western expansion is a battle between the two countries for new territory until all the lines are drawn.  Forward to current day.  How islife different?

 CSA: The Confederate States of America

 See post #12.    That was a pretty good movie, actually.

 Amazing!  Someone stole my idea before I even had it. 

Reason #423 to dump the red states.