Weight training suggestions for challenged knees?

I'm just posting up a storm here today!

I am a, what Melkor so charmingly calls a "cardio bunny" (I can HEAR the venom in written word !!!). What can I say? I was raised that way, and I have lost 20 pounds so far. Don't get me wrong, it's not all I do....I do excellent strength work on my arms, but not as much free weight as I'd like...I have herniated discs and I find the machines are kinder.

That said, I'm really discouraged with the lack of slimming in my upper thigh area. I do leg presses, but that's about it. I just stood up in my office and tried squats with no weights and the crunch in my knees was audible. And really gross. Shudder. You think I'd be used to it by now.  I AM definitely more toned than I was 2 months ago, no doubt...and I have a very athletic build to begin with....but argh, the thighs.

God. I feel about 100 years old right now.

So what the hell? How am I going to slim down my legs without the ability to not screw up my no-cartilage having knee? I'm a-ok cutting back on my cardio to make time for more strength training a couple of times a week, I just have no idea where to even begin...

Many thanks for suggestions.

I also have herniated discs -- at least 2 lumbar and at least 2  cervical.  It's been awhile since I've had an MRI... that said I talked to my physical therapist and my doctor and they think that lifting (yes, free weights) -- emphasizing good form -- will help to strengthen the surrounding muscles making my back problems less severe.

I have been doing my PT (for rotator cuff) for several months now and I'm now adding some of the exercises from stumptuous.com.  It has been highly recommended by several people here and I'm really seeing some progress. 

 

Well, doing cardio doesn't make you a cardio bunny -  keeping the pace down to not muss your perfectly-coiffed hair or disturb your makeup is a warning sign that you might be one, being concerned with "fat-burning zones" and keeping the heart rate down to stay in it is another :-P

Nothing wrong with doing cardio - moving around more and having fun in the process is a good thing. And if you've got athletic goals like some of the posters here - Trhawley, Jc, Coach_k, among others, well, if you want to get good at running, biking or swimming, you need to run, bike or swim. They all do lots of cardio-type exercise, but that doesn't make them cardio bunnies :)

 I don't agree with all of Mark's thinking, but the Primal Blueprint from Mark's Daily Apple has some interesting food for thought about healthy living and how to apply it to yourself.

 But I digress.

 No spot reduction of fat, but spot training of muscle does happen. Which is to say that while the squat is a fantastic exercise and well worth your time to do to strengthen your whole body, you can do without it if it causes you pain. Popping and grinding is mostly due to cavitation in the joint fluid and tendons 'popping' over obstructions and is generally not dangerous even if it does sound pretty dreadful. But pain's different - no exercise should actually hurt to do.

 If it's just noise though, squat away:

With correct loading and technique, anterior cruciate ligaments (ACL) and medial cruciate ligament (MCL) injuries generally don't present a problem. I know someone who is even missing an ACL on one knee, and has a reconstructed ACL on the other, and she squats quite happily.
Stumptuous.com Learning the squat part 1

 On the other hand, one of the worst exercises for people with knee troubles is the leg extension - the shear forces on the knees are at a 90 degree angle to where they're biomechanically designed to be during the natural use of the knee through walking, squats and deadlifts. There's a whole lot of people who've really screwed up their knees using leg extensions.

 Anyway. Biomechanically, your upper body can push and pull in a vertical or horizontal direction. your lower body can squat and deadlift- and the classic strength workouts incorporate all those. As long as you're doing the exercises that you can perform pain-free, you're doing good :)

If cardio bunnies wear ripped shorts and 20 year old concert tshirts they sweat through daily, then stick a carrot in my mouth and call me cottontail.  I LOVE my cardio because it makes me move.  I love to sweat, and I feel like I'm accomplishing something.  As for athletic goals...I'm planning to start rowing again for the first time since college this fall....so yeah, you weight lifters ain't got nothing on a rower (I kid, I kid).  It will be my first time back into competitive sports since college, and damn right I want to be able to run 5 miles,  do ergs that would make the normal "fit" person throw up , and get on the water with the power of the nationally ranked rower I once was.

There WILL be pain in the knees--soccer claimed my ACL and cartilage years ago.  It may be permanent, but it will most certainly be initial.  I just have to work through it for a while and see just what I can handle.  After all, rowing is as much the slide of the legs as it is the pull of the arms.  And I loathe leg extensions, which I why I avoid all but the leg press now.  Glad to hear I SHOULD be skipping it.

 

Karozel, mine are cervical as well...and acting up right now like they haven't in months.  Like I can't turn my head side to side kind of pain.  I'm trying to find a good PT---because as cute as the trainer at my gym is, I do NOT trust him to have the right information as to what I should and shouldn't be doing.  I'm really glad to hear, though, that you're able to lift with free weights.

Tomorrow will be an interesting gym day.  No time like the present if I want to start seeing the results I'm cardioing and calorie restricting like mad to get.  My only concern is having to change up my calorie intake, as I'm fairly sure weight training does NOT burn the calories cardio does...and I surely don't have the time to do both without halving the cardio!

One suggestion on the leg presses, according to the New Rules of Lifting, on legged leg presses tent to keep your back in better position than the standard 2-leg version.

when doing your squat your legs should be hip distance apart - and no your hips are not that wide!!! stand up put your legs hip distance apart and then step in - women usually stand to wide.

Pilates movements can also help build muscles on your legs. Check YouTube free moves ... find stuff lieing down on your side etc. Lots you can do... and then when you find those excericses easy buy some ankle weights to use while doing them (many people say you never walk w. ankle weight thou!).

Increase your resistance on the cardio - esp good on the ellipitical. When on treadmill always have a little incline as 0 is bad for the knees.

Hope it helps :)

I also have really bad knees (advanced Osteoarthritis in both).  Without going into my long hisotry, I have found strength training helps to stabelize and reduce the pain in my knees (which is there every single day, whether I invite it or not) to a manageable level.  I have been following the New Rules of Lifting for Women for a short while now, am mid Stage II in the program, which includes squats, lunges and deadlifts, and I can honestly say that while I have to be extremely attentive to proper form, they have all helped strength the muscles that support my knees and as a result, they are more stable and they hurt less.  Of course, I have also had Synvisc injections, which prior to having, my knees were so bad there were times when walking was a challenge.  Because I love to be active and am inherently stubborn and was told by my Orthopedic surgeon that exercise would not hurt me, and would only help me, I would work through the pain.  But it is really, really nice to have less pain.

If you can, try the squats and lunges -- maybe you won't go as deep as you might like at first, but if you use good form (key), I think you may be pleasantly surprised.  And I agree that you should stay away from leg extensions -- they are evil for people like me.

I've been doing the one-legged leg press recently - just be sure to cut the weight down to a fraction of what you are used to for two legs - my right leg is ridiculously weak, I've learned, and while I could do 160lb with both legs, I can only do 30lb with just my right leg.

I have to say it felt WEIRD doing 50 minutes of strength training and only 20 HIIT on my beloved cross trainer. (which I definitely do varied incline/resistance every other minute or every three, depending on the day---and I do interval hills on the treamill when I do them.  I walk 4 miles r/t to work and that's flat enough for me!).

I honestly don't feel like I got nearly enough of a work out this morning...EXCEPT that squats are making my legs sore, which is wonderful.  How many should I be aiming to do?  I did 6 sets of 12 while holding a 5 pound medicine ball....and two of those were the side kick kind.  I wussed out on the lunges as they hurt my knee so much I couldn't proceed.  Renee thanks for re-enforcing form on squats....I assumed I was doing them right and now I know I am!  One leg presses, huh?  I've been doing that when my knee hurt!

Paula, I'll definitely look into that new rules of lifting...it sounds incredibly helpful.  If I'm being honest, I shy away from free weights because I am not knowledgeable  enough in what to DO.  I'll be rectifying that today, I hope.  I'll be "that girl" at the gym with my clipboard LOL.

I'm still concerned with not burning enough calories for lack of time, but I'm committed to going with 2x a week of heavy strength work and then light on the more cardio days.  I'm getting pretty annoyed with all the work I'm doing and not seeing the results I feel like I SHOULD be getting!

And by "that girl" at the gym with a clipboard, you mean the one who actually tracks her progress, has a real routine, and seeks to improve every time she goes? Yes, be "that girl"!

 Oh, being a cottontail means not working hard enough to sweat, because that would mess up your makeup - you're just athletic :-P

 You might want to consult with a physical therapist for an assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, to see if there's any muscle imbalances you should be working on or any postural problems that you'd want to correct - frequently, joint pain is traceable to a stability or mobility problem at the joint above or below the one where you feel the pain. A tight hip or inflexible ankle can make your knee have to move more than it's designed for to compensate. With preexisting knee issues you'd be well advised to get a professional to give you a once-over and instruct you in exercises to perform - there's a reason PT's go to school for 5 years or more ;)

 Barring that, take a look at the list of weight training programs from the FAQ and see if you find one that fits your needs - strength training twice a week is sufficient to see some improvements assuming you follow a sane program design.

 "That girl" is the one who gets the results she wants - keeping track of what you're doing and having sane and attainable goals is the only way to make real progress. So yes, be "that girl" :)   

Original Post by melkor:

  You might want to consult with a physical therapist for an assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, to see if there's any muscle imbalances you should be working on or any postural problems that you'd want to correct - frequently, joint pain is traceable to a stability or mobility problem at the joint above or below the one where you feel the pain. A tight hip or inflexible ankle can make your knee have to move more than it's designed for to compensate. With preexisting knee issues you'd be well advised to get a professional to give you a once-over and instruct you in exercises to perform - there's a reason PT's go to school for 5 years or more ;)
 

AMEN... I went to a PT for my left knee when I 'just twisted it'. I had swelling in both knees. Basically, I was told my body type was NOT made for running. The angle from my hip to knee was off the charts. To make matters worse, my quads were really over developed as compared to muscles on the inside portion of the leg/knee thus causing even more problems. He gave me some really good exercises to strengthen this area...Most importantly, it's made me get back on my bike...forgot how much I missed cycling...Is 45 y/o to old to start traing for Tour de France??? LOL.

 

Will do on the PT.  I'm working on it...gotta find out which ones are covered by my piddly insurance first!

Incidentally, I now have a love/hate relationship with squats.  I'm so sore today I want to cry, but to me, that means good things.  Means I'm working a set of muscles that I've not been tending to.

But really.  My 12 year old dog looked at me with pity this morning.  He was all, honey, I'm 84 and I'M MOVING BETTER than you are.

Hopefully it will have subsided when I do another round tomorrow.  The cross trainer felt great this morning, the treadmill was a special kind of torture.  I printed a bunch of circuit training stuff that I can't wait to do!  No work tomorrow means plenty of time to do it right AND get my cardio in.  Huzzah!

Hey music, I'm hearing versions of my old self in you. I would push through past endurance and pain until I got to where I could exercise without crying.  My cholesterol lowering drug also exaccerbated the issue. My doctor didn't believe that it was causing joint pain--but really what it was is I was so used to endurance training that when the statin contributed to my muscle weakening I didn't recognize it and kept training.  Moral of the story, listen to your body, visit the PT and check with your doctor.  My knees sounded like snap-crackle and pop.  The PT found that I was overdeveloped relative to the other muscles and helped me stretch and develop strength on the other side.  Jump to end--I changed medicines, layed off of the intense exercising, layed off of all exercising and am now working my way back up the fitness scale, but doing it basically pain free.  It is possible!