Workout, Diet, and a Complex Work Schedule--Questions.

I've been hitting it hard for almost 3 years.  My avatar photo was taken July 2007.  I'm about 10 pounds lighter today than I was then.

Currently, I lift on a 3-day routine. With the exception of my legs and abs day, I'm doing a 4-set 5 to 8 rep program right now.  For legs I do a 3x12 routine, little lighter weight, higher reps.  My knees and ankles kinda suck.  Thanks, Army.

Day 1:  Chest and Back. 45 minutes. 22 minutes of HIIT.

Day 2:  Arms and Shoulders. 60 minutes.  22 minutes of HIIT.

Day 3:  Abs and Legs.  75 minutes.  No cardio.

Cycle then starts over again.  Each muscle group gets about 72 hours off.

The reason for this workout scenario is my job.  I work 12-hour shifts, 3 days on, 3 days off.  This routine fits perfectly into that schedule.  I work out at home.  I hate break days, and generally don't take any unless something comes up that makes it impossible to work out.  That happens maybe once a month.

I'm 35 years old, 6'1, 178 pounds, definitely more cut than bulk.  Just starting to see the six-pack peeking out in spots, some decent definition, but not a ton of mass.  When I started 3 years ago, I was 220+ pounds with zero muscle.  I'm getting 120 grams a day in protein shakes and I usually come in between 1800-2200 calories a day total with a cheat day every 10 days to two weeks where I approach 3000 calories.

I'm generally going for a look somewhere between Jason Statham and Gerard Butler (Leonidas from the movie 300).  I know I'll never get that ripped, but that's my gold ring.

Anyway, enough background.  Here are my questions:

1.  Is the 2000 calories a day an arbitrary figure based on a certain amount of hours in a person's "day"?  I have days where work forces me to be awake for 20 and sometimes 24 hours.  No way I'm staying below 2000 on those days.  I have a job that keeps me physically active most of my shift.  I generally eat about every 3 hours and drink two gallons of water.  Should I still shoot for 2000 on those days, or is it okay to surpass it when I'm going that long?

2.  I REFUSE to do HIIT on the same day as legs, but I know alternating days for HIIT is what's best for you.  I'm forced to do it two days consecutive, take a day off, two days consecutive, etc.  Am I doing more harm than good?  I love it, by the way, what an awesome fat-cutter, and it's QUICK.

3.  I feel I've isolated the muscle groups enough to where each general area of my bod gets 72 or so off between workouts.  Do you think I'm overtraining?

4.  This all started due to me being overweight for most of my life.  I'm always fighting my metabolism (though I will say it's definitely sped up in the last 3 years).  I'm thinking about trying to bulk up chest and arms a bit now that I've been in the zone for so long, but I'm terrified of fattening up instead of muscling up, ruining all my hard work, and I really want that six-pack.  Any of you bulkers out there with any input for the ex-fat kid who's now the skinny guy?  I don't mind seeing the numbers on the scale go up, as long as I still look good and the pants size doesn't change.  I'm looking for nutritious ideas, easy suggestions, and maybe recommendations on O.T.C. supplements. I already take several, btw.  GNC is my friend.

Whoo, long-winded post.  I've been saving these questions up for a while.  Thanks for reading.  Any input is appreciated.

 ...Pete

 Nice guns!

Hmm, in general that seems like an okay program and as long as it's working for you there isn't much of a need to change things up too much, but - are you doing this continuously? That's probably way, way too much training stress when combined with the general stress from your job. So yes, you're probably overdoing it somewhat.

 Personally I'd lower your frequency somewhat to having at least 1, preferably 2 off days a week. Adding off days from lifting doesn't have to be off days from training - do your HIIT on your non-training days. That would leave you with a cycle of for example 1-2-3-HIIT-1-2-HIIT for the first week and 3-1-2-HIIT-3-1-HIIT for the second, and so on.

 Are you training on the days when you're awake 20-24 hours? Very much not a good idea, your body will be stressed beyond belief already and adding training on top of that will just make things that much harder for yourself. And yes, the calorie burn assumes that you sleep at least a few hours a day - 2000 is a simplistic average for the sedentary individual. This isn't you, so use the site tools to figure out your caloie needs. (Quiet Sleeping is what you burn at rest, unless you're a violent bed-turner. At work you'll be burning a lot more, one assumes)

 For us FFB's (Former Fat Boys) - we can't go on the gonzo bulking diets that the skinny guys would use. Instead, adopt a build-and-burn strategy; eat a small calorie surplus for 8 weeks - your optimum will vary but generally lie between 350-500 calories over maintenance. After 8 weeks you'll have added quite a bit of muscle, and some fat - so you'll go on a mild 500-calorie deficit diet for 2 weeks to burn off the fat but leave the muscle intact. Repeat.

 A skinny guy would just go on a gonzo bulk with 1000+ calorie surplus for 12-16 weeks and then diet for 2-4, but we can't get away with that sort of thing. If you do the clean/slow bulk though, you can add mass in a 70% muscle 30% fat ratio and burn the fat off with two-week diets.

 But this presupposes that you first get down to ridiculously-shredded levels of bodyfat - at least below 10% so you have the six-pack and linea alba visible. I'm still working on that bit myself - I've got at least a percentage point or two to go before I'm there ;)

Melkor--

Thanks a ton for your reply.  I'm going to give your post a better reply than this one, just wanted you to know I read and appreciate it.  

 I'll add more.  Tomorrow.  After this three-day work set ends.  I TIRED. 

Okay.  Got a day off and a little sleep.

First off, thanks again for getting back.  And thanks for the guns comment, LOL.

I may try your suggestion about workout frequency and messing with the schedule to incorporate more off days.  I'm really noticing significant differences in the quality of my workout these last couple months when I have a day off and go back to it--it feels a lot better overall.

But for now, yes, I do train nearly every day.   I forgot to mention that I'm a first thing in the morning guy--I usually start about an hour after I get up each day.  I can't work out in the evenings after a 12-hour or more shift, I'm usually too wasted.

As for calorie needs, I guess my main thing is I'm not sure what class I fit into--moderate or highly active.  Active says I can have 3300 calories a day and still lose weight, moderate limits me to 2700, but frankly, I'm not sure I trust either figure as those seem like high amounts for weight loss, even with my active profession, lifting, and cardio--I'm not a hiker or a rock climber, and though I do lots of "short burst" exertion in my workday, it's not like I'm a lumberjack or a manual laborer, so I'm unsure how to classify myself to find the perfect intake/deficit balance, hence my "stick around 2000" mentality.  My only concerns are that I'm either coming in too low and hurting my chances at building muscle, or the flip side, eating too much and risking fat gain when I'm not ready for it.  As for how I feel, it really doesn't matter--1800 calories, or 2500 calories, it's all a challenge--I'm always hungry, except on cheat days.  I could easily eat 4K calories a day, so I don't trust my own judgement on whether or not I'm getting too little food or it's just my inner fat kid wanting more chow.

If I can ever settle on a solid calorie intake figure, I'm going to try your theory on the 70/30 muscle/fat gain.  I like the sound of that.  At my height/weight, without hitting the doc's office to do a body fat test, and using a measuring tape, I'm thinking ballpark that I'm in the 13-14% range.  I can see the centerline and the edges of my obliques, and the six pack's under there if I reach for the ceiling, so I figure I've gotta be close.  I may be high on my estimations, I don't know.  Anyway, I'll probably hold off until I hit 170 pounds, see what the core looks like, and then roll with the bulking program you suggested.

I'm open to suggestions as far as a magic number for how many calories I should consume daily if you have any ideas.  I know that's tough to judge for someone else, but I'm all ears.  My work consists of probably 8-10 hours of driving, an hour or so of desk time, and lots of short periods of walking, running, climbing, standing, and occasionally...well...fighting.   I pack food with me at work, and my normal day's intake goes something like this:

Workout/HIIT

Post workout/breakfast--4 PM 

Supplement drink (Anabolic OD, Muscle Asylum Project at GNC--GOOD STUFF.) 160 calories--I drink this between lifting and getting on the bike.

Immediately after cardio's done:

Protein shake, 270

Oatmeal, 130

Fruit 90

Total for breakfast (including the pre-cardio drink): 650 calories

Dinner (at work) 7:30-8:00 PM

400-600 calories, usually salad, Subway, grilled chicken/rice etc.

Snack, 10 PM 100 calories

Protein/Meal/Nutrition Bar, 1 AM, 200 calories

Snack, 4 AM, 200 calories, usually tuna/veggies/fruit, something like that

Protein shake, 6:30 AM or so, 270 calories.  Straight to bed afterward.

Total is 2020 calories, plus or minus.  Many days I come in at 1800, especially when I'm not working.  Some days I unintentionally run to around 2400 to 2500 at work, depending on what dinner I end up finding.  It also doesn't help when my co-workers f*** with me by intentionally sneaking boxes of donuts or chocolate chip cookies in my squad car when I'm not looking because they like to torture me and know I'm trying to lose weight.

My cheat days are usually on off days when the wife cooks  or we go out somewhere , then God only knows.  Like I said, those days are maybe every two weeks or so, and then I don't even worry about dinner, I just eat whatever I'm in the mood for, and it'll usually throw me over the 3k mark for intake.  The days I'm not working, I don't end up eating as many meals, I'm a lot more sedentary, (you know, typing forum posts, surfing fitness sites and stuff) and I'm not awake as long.

I'm currently taking NO, the Anabolic Supplement, a fat-burner, and big ol' horsepill multivitamins, along with the 2 gallons a day of water.

Your thoughts?  Enough?  Too much?

Thanks again for your reply and the suggestions.  I need all the help I can get, I'm learning as I go.

...Pete

Well, it's not quite my strategy - most of it's lifted more or less wholesale from  Build and Burn by Mike Roussell and  The Truth About Bulking by Christian Thibaudeau. My original contribution is just combining those two plus the bodyfat testing method and the calorie tracking from this site to really figure out your optimum calorie intake during the build/burn cycles :)

 Hmm, yeah - I've already posted the drill once today, in this thread - I've also posted my favourite strength program there. Well, for anyone starting out and needing instructions in the basics anyway - your program seems sensibly put together so except for the too-high frequency I doubt you'd get more out of following either of the starter programs I linked to there, but sometimes reading just for the fun of it can spark ideas for your to try in your own program.
 Also, try having the shake pre-workout instead of post-workout. I had a heck of a time managing the transition to having pre-workout protein shakes myself, but it was oh so worth it when it comes to the quality of my workouts and progress in general once it was done. And you shouldn't do strength training in a protein-fasted state either, that's a no-no as far as muscle gains are concerned; so the optimum there would probably be 'wake, slug protein shake, wait 10-20 minutes, warm up and hit the weights'.

 Also, don't forget Berardi's 90%-rule: you only need 90% perfection in your diet to see the same results as 100% perfection would bring you. So there's room for your wife's cooking in there ;)

 Supplements - not big on those in general, except for the basics like whey protein, but if you're seeing results, why not? Though most fat burners are more or less coffee - caffeine forms the basic ingredient in most diet pills on the market and I suspect that your job includes plenty of coffee already. Though there are plenty of studies to show small but helpful effects from various herbs and spices, and essential fats like CLA, ALA, and fish oil, so taking some of them can't hurt anyway - and Creatine is probably the most-studied supplement in sports history. NO though - the science behind most arginine boosters and stuff is - well, so much horse apples. In clinical studies they've got to have their subjects hooked up to an IV drip to have a measurable effect to study, oral supplementation mostly just don't work. The creatine in the supplement does the heavy lifting there, but you'd get a better deal by just getting some regular ol' creatine monohydrate and whey protein, and combining the two - the arginine stuff is just bull byproduct at least according to a source I trust :)

i know this isn't exactly a scientific analogy, but in terms of activity level:  i tried comparing myself.  i'm not a manual laborer (high activity level) either.  so i asked myself, if i did manual laboring for a week, would i be tired from the increased activity?  would it be a lot more activity than i'm used to?  that's how i decided on my activity level.

for the calories, 178 pounds at 6'1 is pretty darn lean.  but w/the physical demands you put on your body (work and working out), i honestly wouldn't be surprised if you maintained at 3000.  i'm not just throwing that number out there, though i'll admit i'm not a professional:  cc says a moderately active person of your height and weight and age burns 2900; even at "light," you're 2200--and even you'll admit that you're not doing anything lightly.

i read melkor's other thread where he suggests increasing your calories until your gains have you gaining too much fat (compared to muscle).  i wouldn't even necessarily suggest such an exact method:  just increase by ~200 week and close your eyes for the first two weeks.  after that time, your metabolism will have readjusted to your fair eating habits and you'll see that you're not just a 10-year old whining for carvel.  by the way, i think jason statham sounds like such a cool guy; i really hope he makes it big.

Thanks for the links and the additional advice.  You guys both made me feel a little better.  I've eased up just a bit on the strict count over the past week or so.  I've noticed that not only my energy, but my mood has improved, especially at work.  Maybe it's the carbs talkin' . 

Anywho, I've upped my protein levels to nearly my body weight in grams, and have been hanging right around 2400-2500 cals a day.  I still haven't been able to talk myself into lowering workout frequency, but I'm pondering it pretty hard.  I will say that although I'm still not drinking shakes prior to the workout, I do hit it soon enough after I get up that I hope that pre-bedtime shake is still whipcracking around my system at least a little.  I've also started eating a small simple carb right before I get started--half a banana, some crackers, etc.  Even that makes a difference in workout quality.

As for working out with working all the hours, I just don't think I can get around it.  I think it's probably the price I'm going to pay to continue a regular routine.  To me, the risks of training fatigue on low sleep and the working out are less than being 220+ and out of shape anyway.  Now if they'll just quit calling me in and messing up my routine on my days off, all will be well.  The other day I had to get up at 3 AM, work out and do cardio, go into work until noon, then come home, sleep for three hours, and go back in at 6 PM for my regular 12-hour shift.  The next day I got about 5.5 hours' sleep, then got up, worked out, and went back to work.  The workout started a little slow, but I really felt better afterward for the rest of the night, and I noticed the night before when I hadn't worked out before starting at 6 PM, I was a sluggish mess by about 2 the next morning.

I even ate a glazed donut at Starbucks the other night at work.  The guys dared me.  It was gooo---ood.  Shut 'em up for a while too LOL.

That article about the placebo effect and supplements was damned interesting, by the way.  I'll probably finish out this bottle of NO and then let it go.  Where's MSNBC with their investigative reports when you need 'em?  You don't EVEN want to know how much I've spent on supps in the last two years.

Anyway, thanks guys.  Seeya

...Pete

 

Hey Melkor, I was wondering if I could ask you a question.  Like you guys, I used to be a fat kid.  When I was 16 I was 5'10 235 pounds.  I was active though, I played football and wrestled and was good, but I just ate total garbage all the time.  The word "moderation" just wasnt really one I was acquainted with.  Well when I turned 17 I started hitting the cardio at the gym real hard for about 6 months, with light weight training and got down to around 205.  Than the next 6 months I started heavy weight training and more cardio and went down to 170.  I realized that the diet I was on was more of a crash diet because I was not getting enough calories, but I didnt care, I looked great, 6 pack you know the whole deal. 

I recently started college and decided that over the winter I would begin to bulk to put on some muscle.  I went from 170 to 190 in 5 months and got considerably stronger in every aspect of my workout.  However, like typical bulking diets I did gain a little bit of fat.  Now I've started to cut.  Doing 25 minutes of HIIT monday tuesday and thursday along with a strict weight lifting diet.  I was curious though, at the end of the day, after i subtract what I estimate I burned off each day from training which probably is in the 400-600 calorie range, I only really have eaten 900-1500 calories, somewhere in there.  Ive read for my age thats nowhere near what I should have, but really Im not any more hungry, and I eat extremely clean. 

My meals typicall are like this.

Morning 10 am: protein shake, 3 egg whites, and apple

workout

post workout:protein shake, half a banana

lunch: grilled chicken with some vegetables and maybe some tuna salad and a couple egg whites.

snack: anything high in protein, usually a can of tunafish

dinner: more chicken

the reason I eat so much chicken is because at school, if its not greasy, fried, fat, its grilled chicken from the salad bar.

than later ill snack on maybe some beef jerky or some nuts.

My question is how would I restructure my diet, to eat more calories, however also lose weight.  If im not getting anywhere near enough, if I add more will I just gain?

sorry this is so long lol. thanks.