Yea, 9/11 was a bad event...but...

Urgg, every year its the same where people start saying how horrible 9/11 was and how tragic and how amazingly terrible an event it was...

Ok, yes, 3,000 people dieing is bad (not saying we shouldnt think of the people who were needlessly killed)... but what about the rest? Why dont i hear about the strong feelings of sadness when the day the iraq war started comes about? Is it because the people dieing there arent "one of us" ?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Just saying, if you are talking about how horrible 9/11 was and how much it moves you and how sad you feel...you better be saying the same things towards a much more horrible event in our recent history when that day comes along.... (and not just for "our" people, you should be feeling the same thing towards ALL the innocent humans needlessly killed....)

Really bugs me when i see all the activity and "sadness"...and then the rest of the year is silent and back to normal... just smacks of phoney masks people put on....

Also, everyone seems to agree that the war in Iraq is wrong and we have no right to be there and that it was done for profits and oil (Which I have to disagree with, for if it was done for that reason wouldn't you think gas and oil prices would have fallen by now? hmmm.)

 The Iraq war was untertaken for many reasons - some cynical and greedy, others foolish and overambitious. 

I find your naiveté stunning.  Since when do low oil prices work in favor of the oil companies?  Are you not aware of the RECORD SOARING PROFITS the oil companies have recorded since March 2003?  I suppose you also believe the oil companies when they say that the reason gas prices are so high is because they "had to" shut down  half of their refineries for "maintenance and repairs"?  Or that the soaring profits caused by the tight refining capacity had nothing to do with their decision to cancel construction of several planned refineries?  Oh, how I wish I lived in your rose-colored world, where corporations actually look out for the interests of consumers.  It must be nice there.

Original Post by obigmcveyo:

But my question is, if everyone is for helping innocent people, why are people against the overthrow of a cruel dictator that has been reportedly responsible of the deaths of up to 1 million innocent people. I have even read several reports that up to 500,000 children have died due to malnutrition, even when international organizations tried to bring food into the country and was subsequently taken by the regime and later found in massive warehouses.

 The only place that has been reported was Fox News.  Most of the people killed by the despot Hussein were either in the Iran/Iraq war, or were involved in uprisings against his government (one of which was encouraged by Bush Sr. who promised to aid the rebels and then reneged and left them to die at Saddam's hands.)  Some graves have been found, but the tens of thousands of mass graves Fox News continues to harp on have never been verified by any credible source, nor have any of the lurid tales of "human choppers" or "rape rooms" (I gues they knew they were "rape rooms" because they had little "rape room" signs on the door?

There was an unprecendented propaganda campaign ion US media in 2002 and 2003 to build up the tin-pot dictator Hussein into a modern-day Hitler, but the fact is that his leadership, however flawed, kept disparate factions at bay and kept Iraq stable and functional for more than 30 years, and until the time of Hussein's ill-advised attack against Kuwait, Iraq had the highest standard of living and educational attainment in the middle east.  

 As for the half-million dead children, they starved as a direct result of Bill Clinton's barbaric sanctions program, which continued much longer than was needed or was humane.  Even Madeline Albright conceded the number of dead children and claimed that it was "worth it" to contain Hussein.

 Warehouses full of food?  Sounds like yet another unverified Fox News tall tale, just like the WMD they claim to have found, or going back to 1990, the Kuwaiti babies thrown out of incubators.

The US killed at least 50 thousand civilians in the initial bombing, and various sources report the civilian death toll today to be between 100,000 and 1,000,000.  No matter how you slice it, this was has been disastrous for Iraq, and for American people, who have been forced to pony up over $400 Billion for this war.  It's only been good for the oil companies and the mercenaries like Halliburton.

I just want to point out that nothing I said or any of the figures I said came from Fox news. They were from me doing a little digging on the internet. What makes your numbers any less propaganda driven by CNN or more verified than my numbers? As for your number of innocents killed during the Iraq war, which I agree are horrible, seem a little inflated from my sources (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/). But also that number is just for total number of civilians killed, how many of those civilian deaths are caused by Iraqis and terrorists and their car bombs and suicide bombings?

I'm not at all saying war is a good thing or we should strive for war, it is an ugly and horrible thing, but to sit back and watch while murdering dictators go unchecked is just as horrible.

As I said, I know a lot of you disagree, and I respect that, that is why I live in America. I'm not trying to start a battle here on the forums, I am just pointing out a different side and view of things that may not be the 'Bush is an evil empire' theory.

My reply was probably overstated, but people who grieve the tragedy on 9/11 are not "phoney."

And Pearl Harbor on the same plateau as 9/11? Japan attacked a military base on a largely unpopulated island. The hijackers on 9/11 attacked office buildings in the world's most populous city.

Why do you people insist on reaching for events to demote the significance of 9/11? It is a special attack -- it's UNPRECEDENTED. Are you people that sadistic or are you just Midwesterners who are completely unaffected by it?

I'd guess the latter. Pfft.

Um, sorry, but New York is far from the world's most populous city, in fact it's not even in the top 10.

Also, it's a little crazy (and a tad bit immature) to think that everyone will react the same way YOU react to something.

Also, it's a little crazy (and a tad bit immature) to think that everyone will react the same way YOU react to something.

Ummm....it's more immature and just cruel to belittle someone's else's pain.  

However, as one poster pointed out....as an American you have the right to your opinion, but don't take that to mean that you are better than anyone else....because from this lurker's point of view, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Original Post by jdroller:

 Are you people that sadistic or are you just Midwesterners who are completely unaffected by it?

I'd guess the latter. Pfft.

I don't why you're suggesting that geographical location determines how much a person is affected by 9/11, but it's way off base.  While I don't agree with the entirety of the original post, I don't think it was the result of relative distance from Ground Zero. 

I believe a bit of the point has merit - there are people that die in similar horrible circumstances everyday, but the US doesn't think a moment about it - and it's not because of lack of news exposure.  And then our leadership justifies war supposedly in the name of overthrowing a ruthless dictator, while leaving other ruthless dictators to do their thing with impunity.  (Lest we forget, the US was once a happy ally with Hussein - Rumsfeld had a nice hearty handshake with him a few years back..).  A ruthless dictator or government is only a problem to the US government when they stop acting as its useful puppet.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't mourn the victims of 9/11, or feel guilty about feeling more affected by it.  But we should be mindful of what else is going on in the world, and how the US plays a role in it.

well put, stlchic.

Original Post by rdgatewood:

Also, it's a little crazy (and a tad bit immature) to think that everyone will react the same way YOU react to something.

Ummm....it's more immature and just cruel to belittle someone's else's pain.  

However, as one poster pointed out....as an American you have the right to your opinion, but don't take that to mean that you are better than anyone else....because from this lurker's point of view, nothing could be farther from the truth.

And where exactly did I do that?

Original Post by kindoflikesarah:

Um, sorry, but New York is far from the world's most populous city, in fact it's not even in the top 10.

Also, it's a little crazy (and a tad bit immature) to think that everyone will react the same way YOU react to something.

Scratch that; country's* most populous city. Caught up in the moment, and I don't proofread when I'm pissed off.

And I never said that people should react the same way I react to the tragedy. I did say, however, that no one should label people who mourn 9/11 "phoney" and say that we just "wear masks" when this time of year rolls around. That's a rude overgeneralization -- a lot of people who mourn 9/11 are very well versed in foreign affairs/policy (hell, I give hundreds of dollars per year to various NGOs..Doctors Without Borders, the ONE Campaign, etc).

To say something that hurtful and stereotypical is just sadistic and wrong, and anyone who agrees with it is a witless idiot who should really seek another means of crying out for attention.

And no offense to the Midwest, but my geographical reference was merely used to show how the people who consistently downplay the tragedy of 9/11 have no emotional/personal ties to New York City. Go figure, eh? $10 says if a plane had barreled into the Sears Tower or the St. Louis Arch, some of the people in this thread would be singing a vastly different tune.

So some of you just need to stop with the pretentiousness and keep your insensitive drivel to your damn selves. I'm done with this crock of bullsh*t. Hope you guys enjoy yourselves.

RIP Tom Holohan and Willie Johnston; FDNY forever. <3

Yes, NYC is most populous city in US. As far as the world goes, in residents it isn't in the top 10, however MILLIONS of commuters come into NYC every day so my guess is at any moment in time it is in fact the most populous city in the world.

Original Post by obigmcveyo:

I just want to point out that nothing I said or any of the figures I said came from Fox news. They were from me doing a little digging on the internet. What makes your numbers any less propaganda driven by CNN or more verified than my numbers? As for your number of innocents killed during the Iraq war, which I agree are horrible, seem a little inflated from my sources (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/). But also that number is just for total number of civilians killed, how many of those civilian deaths are caused by Iraqis and terrorists and their car bombs and suicide bombings?

I'm not at all saying war is a good thing or we should strive for war, it is an ugly and horrible thing, but to sit back and watch while murdering dictators go unchecked is just as horrible.

As I said, I know a lot of you disagree, and I respect that, that is why I live in America. I'm not trying to start a battle here on the forums, I am just pointing out a different side and view of things that may not be the 'Bush is an evil empire' theory.

Whether or not your assertions are or not propaganda is irrelevant. The fact is that they are lurid assertions that have made the rounds on cable news, especially on Fox, but for the most part have never been verifed by any credible source. Don't you think that companies who call themselves "news" outlets have a responsibility to at least verify their assertions of mass graves and millions dead?

And do they have no responsibility to specify exactly when the victims, if any were killed, and why?  How many of those "mass graves" were killed in combat in the Iran/Iraq war?  The attacks on the Kurds are the only mass killings I know of that have been verified, and it is fair to mention that the Kurds were in violent uprising against the Iraqi government.  It may not make it right, but suffice to say that Iraq was at war with Kurdish separatists, who had been inciting violent uprisings against the government since the 1970s, so it really isn't innocent to call them "his own people".

The estimates I give may indeed be "propaganda-driven", but nobody marched into war on the basis of MY numbers, nobody died. The numbers YOU cite were used as part of a massive propaganda campaign that resulted in tens of thousands of innocent civilian deaths and the deaths of thousands of US troops. Don't you think the numbers YOU cite should be held to a higher standard, since they were the very basis of the massive fraud on the American people that resulted in this war?

Original Post by kindoflikesarah:

Um, sorry, but New York is far from the world's most populous city, in fact it's not even in the top 10.

I think you could the guy a break on that - it was when most of us were growing up.  Big deal - it's still one of the world's most important cities. 

I love how people reference the body counts of iraq... so what? You say that is worse than 9/11 that would make you just as big of a jack-ass with your own logic.  Look at some of the first chemical attacks germany did, killed roughly 4000 in 15 mins.  Or the casualty counts of just Russia in WWII 27 million....   see we can just turn this into a pissing contest if you want...    again just think a little before you post.  kthx ^_^

i know you topic was posted a long time ago and i am a little late for dinner but if you are so worried about iraq, join to peace corp and go help...better yet if you are so sick of people mourning the lose of thousands of americans move your dumb ass to iraq!!!